What's it like to fly the CRJ?

[Kevin.Held]

I hope noone minds a technical question, but why does it lose it's power above 10,000? Ok, obviously any engine is going to lose performance when air pressure decreases, but what makes this effect so drastic in the CRJ as opposed to the mighty 75? Oooh another question...does the fuel economy also take a big hit at altitude?

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Kevin.Held

I hope noone minds a technical question, but why does it lose it's power above 10,000? Ok, obviously any engine is going to lose performance when air pressure decreases, but what makes this effect so drastic in the CRJ as opposed to the mighty 75? Oooh another question...does the fuel economy also take a big hit at altitude?

Part of the problem is the tiny wing, but most of the problem is the high-bypass engine with a very small hot section. Over 80% of the CF-34's thrust is produced by the bypass air, and when the air starts getting thin up high, then the efficiency of the bypass air drops off quick and you're left with the thrust produced from the tiny hot section.

Fuel economy gets much better up at altitude. When we used to be able to take it up to FL410, you could get M.74 at less than 1000 lbs a side. It was rare to be light enough to get up that high, but even at FL350 you could do M.74 at 1150 a side or so.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

The CRJ is only underpowered up at altitude. Down low, the thing is a rocket ship and will outclimb pretty much anything except a 757 up through 10,000 ft.

Now THAT was a good one! You had me going there for a second!

[kellwolf]

Thing climbs like a pig down low in the summer, too. Lately, I've routinely seen good climb performance right off the takeoff roll, though. Once it starts warming up, that'll stop....

[Low_Level_Hell]

Realizing this question has nothing to do with aviation careers...

If the CRJ is such a weak performer, how come there are so many of them compared to similar aircraft like the ERJ and well, the ERJ? Is it the Innitial cost? Been around longer? Opperating Cost? Canadian Mob?

[kellwolf]

Short answer: airlines don't care about climb performance. They care about getting from point A to point B as cheaply as possible.

In addition to that, airlines are continually using the CRJ on routes it was NOT designed for. I don't think Bombardier had MEM-YYZ in mind when they came up with the design for the CRJ. I've also been told that they weren't designed to for the insane amount of cycles (takeoffs and landings) per day that they are put through at a lot of airlines.

Fact is, due to killer lease options, operating costs and lucrative partnership contracts with major airlines, regional airlines can operate the CRJ on the cheap. They don't care that it only climbs at 500 fpm on a hot day above FL260. By that point, it's not burning much fuel, so the beancounters don't care.

[PCL_128]

Very true.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

They don't care that it only climbs at 500 fpm on a hot day above FL260. By that point, it's not burning much fuel, so the beancounters don't care.

500 fpm is actually getting a little optomistic at that altitude on a hot day.

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

So, why don't you give us a detailed breakdown of how the 170/175 flies, what's good, what's bad, and how do you like the FBW and the fuzzy logic!?

Hey, thats "According to System Logic..." lol.
Every button.

"What does this button do?"
"It opens the bleeds according to system logic..."
"And the Anti-ice?"
"Starts with system logic blah blah blah..."

There is no swapping the bleeds, no turning on gens, no bus ties to close, hell to start the damn thing just turn it to "Start" and watch it go. Fadec is a funny thing, catches hot starts , no starter cutout, hung starts and shuts the engine down before you can say hey that doesnt look right....


FBW just doesn't have the same "feel" to it and I know that sounds weird but it doesn't. The yoke feels wierd with where the pivot point is, almost like you lean the yoke over instead of turning it. Whats good on that plane? I dunno, honestly with all the automation and preview functions, the ability to run off of VNAV (you could program the whole flight plan with speeds and altitudes in the FMS, take off and at 400 ft turn on the AP and honestly never touch a thing until you had to cut it off to land...hell it has auto land capability with auto brakes and while its not installed on our aircraft you would be doing that much less.) The autothrottles take touching them out of the equation soooo... I guess Im trying to say it turns you into a lax pilot. Atleast the 700 flew nice, rocket climb and you felt like you were flying - the 900 is another thing altogether. That thing felt reeeaaallly long, like it wasnt balanced.

I honestly do like both tho....just the CRJ over the 170/75

[coa787]

How come the pilots almost never fully retract the flaps after they land? I've noticed quite a few CRJs sitting at the gates with flaps extended to the setting just before the flaps up setting.

[inside0ut]

Most companies with the 200 you always leave the flaps at 8 degrees, the 7/9 you set flaps after start.

[coa787]

Thanks, and I suppose that Comair would be among those?

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

Most companies with the 200 you always leave the flaps at 8 degrees, the 7/9 you set flaps after start.

It's because of an AD pertaining to the anti skew sensors. If the AD isn't complied with (or the sensors are MELd) there is a whole procedure where you have to make sure there are a certain number of fingers width between flaps and they are in a straight line.

All of our planes serial numbers are post AD so we can bring the flaps up all the way.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

Hey, thats "According to System Logic..." lol.
Every button.

"What does this button do?"
"It opens the bleeds according to system logic..."
"And the Anti-ice?"
"Starts with system logic blah blah blah..."

There is no swapping the bleeds, no turning on gens, no bus ties to close, hell to start the damn thing just turn it to "Start" and watch it go. Fadec is a funny thing, catches hot starts , no starter cutout, hung starts and shuts the engine down before you can say hey that doesnt look right....


FBW just doesn't have the same "feel" to it and I know that sounds weird but it doesn't. The yoke feels wierd with where the pivot point is, almost like you lean the yoke over instead of turning it. Whats good on that plane? I dunno, honestly with all the automation and preview functions, the ability to run off of VNAV (you could program the whole flight plan with speeds and altitudes in the FMS, take off and at 400 ft turn on the AP and honestly never touch a thing until you had to cut it off to land...hell it has auto land capability with auto brakes and while its not installed on our aircraft you would be doing that much less.) The autothrottles take touching them out of the equation soooo... I guess Im trying to say it turns you into a lax pilot. Atleast the 700 flew nice, rocket climb and you felt like you were flying - the 900 is another thing altogether. That thing felt reeeaaallly long, like it wasnt balanced.

I honestly do like both tho....just the CRJ over the 170/75

Hey, thanks for the write up, interesting look at the 170/175! With all that you said about them in terms of automation, are they at least good "hand flying" planes?

I also hear the 170-195's are much slower in comparison to the CRJ's!

Any truth?

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Hey, thanks for the write up, interesting look at the 170/175! With all that you said about them in terms of automation, are they at least good "hand flying" planes?

I also hear the 170-195's are much slower in comparison to the CRJ's!

Any truth?

Eh, the 170/75 arent the best hand flying planes, but I just think the moped grips need to get used to.

Yeah, they are a bit slower. The CRJ would do .85 (the 200? MAYBE. the 7/9 no problem.) and we would do .83 always. The 170 does max .82 but we always keep it .78.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

Most companies with the 200 you always leave the flaps at 8 degrees, the 7/9 you set flaps after start.

Except for ours. I think that's the reason our Flaps 8 limiting speed is 115 instead of what's placarded on the plane. I think you an opt to have a lower limiting speed, and you don't have to do the flap inspection. I could be wrong, though.

Also, if you're landing on a contaminated runway, standard ops (here at least) is to leave the flaps at either flaps 20 (or flaps 8 if it's a flaps 8 plane) to do a contamination check on the walkaround before fully retracting the flaps.

[scflyin]

Let me get this straight. You are limited to 115 for flaps 8? Or did I read that wrong?

[PCL_128]

He meant 215. Typo.

[ERfly]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

Hey, thats "According to System Logic..." lol.
Every button.

"What does this button do?"
"It opens the bleeds according to system logic..."
"And the Anti-ice?"
"Starts with system logic blah blah blah..."

That's the 145, too. According to our ground school instructor, there are only two switches that actually do something. That's the Manual Pressurization Controller (physically tied to the Pneumatic Outflow Value) and the Bus Tie Close switch. Everything else is just a request.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

He meant 215. Typo.

[E_Dawg]

Been almost a month but to my recollection it's a really easy plane to fly, stable but responsive and almost feels like you're 'wearing' it, like you would a backback.

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Except for ours. I think that's the reason our Flaps 8 limiting speed is 115 instead of what's placarded on the plane. I think you an opt to have a lower limiting speed, and you don't have to do the flap inspection. I could be wrong, though.

Also, if you're landing on a contaminated runway, standard ops (here at least) is to leave the flaps at either flaps 20 (or flaps 8 if it's a flaps 8 plane) to do a contamination check on the walkaround before fully retracting the flaps.

Yeah we had the AD when I was there, always flaps 8. We did have the same speed for 8 and 20 tho, 230.

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

stable but responsive and almost feels like you're 'wearing' it, like you would a backback.

ROFL! Thinly veiled dig on commuter guys. Legen....(wait for it)...dary!

What's it like to fly a CRJ? Well, it's kind of like the proverbial moped.

It's a lot of fun till' your friends see you on one.