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December 26th, 2007, 13:36
| #1 |
| Junior Member  Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: RKNN
Posts: 185
|  Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China The Truth about Shenzhen / Kunpeng Flight Academy in China (and Chinese Flight School Operations in General) Hello all, unfortunately I have sat idle here and watched the post count go to far with regard to "opportunities" with Shenzhen Kunpeng and other Chinese flight schools for too long. The truth should be shown to all prospective CFI's looking to work in China with this school (or any "Flight" school in China). What I am about to write is factual and doesn't involve any "Bias" or non-truths; on the contrary, this is sadly enough how the operations work here. I ask you all to read this in its entirety (grab a coffee, or whatever you need, because this is unfortunately a long post) in order to open any "prospective eyes " as to why you should or shouldn't come here. What I am about to say is written frankly, and at no time will I be a politician and dance around issues, or downplay the facts. I tell it like it is, and if it is good or bad, both are explained. Additionally, what I am about to show and tell you all will illustrate:
1.) Who I am and why I know these things 2.) The connection with Shenzhen / Kunpeng Flight Academy 3.) The Concept of "Flight Training / Learning" in China 4.) The Shenzhen / Kunpeng Contract (the Real (invalid) one Vs the one that has been created for the betterment of ALL future pilot instructors and the company) 5.) Real-life examples showing the result of incompetent and incorrect training (sponsored by the "Academies" and the CAAC) 6.) Future Goals and the required steps needed to improve the current situation to reach those goals. 1.) Background: To give you all some brief background of who I am, what I have seen, and known here in China: I have been a quality control / assurance instructor here (in China), and my job has entailed teaching Chinese airline cadets as well as the Chinese Military how to convert their military flying skills (which sadly / surprisingly enough 98% are, student-pilot level at best) into a civilian standard and then onto an "Instructor" level of competence. I read, write, and speak Chinese with a level of proficiency that allows me to do all of spoken communications, (with ATC, Students, and the Military) using Chinese. Because of this, doors into the inner workings of how operations are carried out, and connections to certain levels within the management structure between different companies have been revealed to me. 2.) Shenzhen / Kunpeng Connections: To start, I have been in direct connection (Close friends) with this location's (Shenzhen / Kunpeng) president and company colleagues and have actually known the president of Shenzhen / Kunpeng Academy before this location even opened it's doors. The president of the academy is actually the ex-president / ex-vice president from the tremendous screw-up known as "Pan Am" from China, Ie., Beijing Pan Am International Flight Academy. (Which unfortunately is the "better" choice of schools to work for in China at the moment) Do be aware that Beijing Pan Am International Flight Academy has absolutely nothing to do with the "American Pan Am International Flight Academy". No affiliation whatsoever. The Shenzhen / Kunpeng Flight academy, like all other flight academies in China, are essentially a joke, unfortunately not a funny one. I will in full detail, explain to you all why. This "new" location, which is not particularly new at all has been in operation for over 7 months now. I have been there myself on personal visits to meet the president and his colleagues in order To review and obtain a clearer understanding of their current operations. Now I will tell you that the "Shenzhen / Kunpeng (Wuzhou)" 深圳航 空学校， 梧州机场 location looks nice, and is by far a nicer training environment than anything that I've seen in comparison to the Pan Am locations in China (and yes I've been to them all). It is also true that plans have been in the works for a location down on the southern part of China near the Ocean. (Farther south than Macau) and the like. From the last that I spoke with my contact(s) at Shenzhen Kunpeng Academy, there were 3 full time instructors (Foreign), Only two of which are actually flying because the other two are still in the process of well, waiting (I will explain further in section 4.). Additionally, one part time instructor (Foreign), and a few Chinese instructor hopefuls are there. 3.) The Chinese Concept of Training: In China, the standards of Training are extremely low, in fact doing one's best is not particularly the goal nor is learning the actual "true" objective. On the contrary, passing of illegitimate tests, cheating, and simply logging hours in a logbook to meet a TCO requirement are the normal everyday occurrences that are prevalent. You will be amazed at the levels of utter incompetence and corruption that prevail throughout everyday life in these "schools." Touching on Corruption; There have been cases where a Chinese student(s) (military & airline pilot trainee(s)) may actually "fail" a Flight Test but there have been numerous cases where the student will bribe and actually pay off the "CAAC EXAMINER" via money or by taking such examiners to dinner and drinks. The student has then suddenly "Passed" the flight test and is issued a CAAC PPL or CPL Certificate. Interesting isn't it? A fundamental problem with "China" and flight training locations are that Students, (Chinese pilot-instructor hopefuls), Management, Maintenance, and other working company personnel are inherently unable to take responsibility for being "responsible." What does this mean you ask? In China, the concept of "Face" (面子) or "Saving Face" requires that if you do not know what you are doing, you will continue to do so even if it is wrong and if something negative happens as a result of your incompetence, it is not your responsibility, or better yet, It can't be, because you've done nothing wrong. Ironically enough, this is a reason to allow for things to never get accomplished because of the fear of having to experience a "loss of face." It is a circle of ignorance and I have experienced from almost day 1 nearly every day. Tasks that typically require a minimum of a day in Europe, the Americas, Australia, and even Africa, literally require weeks to be accomplished most of the time in China and most of the times, tasks needing to be accomplished, simply never come to fruition. This is not due to lack of "infrastructure" or technology. No, No,. it is a combination of incompetence due to lack of life experience, improper schooling, social dysfunctions, cultural pressures, and age old traditions. These are the examples of why things are not done the most efficient, proper, and sound way. Another reason is because of an utter inability to want to excel, I.e,. laziness. Again, this all stems outward as a result of "Chinese life" in general. Forward thinking is seldom something that is pushed or even known about. Here is an extremely basic example of the inability to allow self responsibility and how this relates to the Training Environment. This can be illustrated by the simple yet common practice of traffic pattern work (Circuit Training). In China, because of the inherent inability to make sound decisions, or better yet, because of the fact that Chinese people have never been given an opportunity to make sound decisions on their own, limits have been imposed, and every single flight training circuit (Traffic Pattern) and thus "Circuit" training is a "Controlled Event." The idea, or even the concept of allowing more than 3~4 aircraft in a traffic pattern without an ATC controller is incomprehensible to the Chinese. The idea of actually using one's own eyes and ears to maintain self awareness is a concept that they can not grasp for fear of the responsibility of any incident / accident coming back to bite them. The sad thing is that such a basic, core flight requirement of see and avoid is something that needs to be developed and allowed to be practiced in order to actually gain experience as an aviator, but again, this is something that they don't "get." Ultimately, any and all students training in China at this point in time, even with an excellent instructor as their teacher will never receive the same quality of experience that even the most basic of other countries' pilots receive. It is a fundamental flaw in the system here going all the way back to the "face" issue, that prevents actual training to be accomplished in any logical and "real" sense. Additionally, and extremely Ironically enough, The ATC controllers at these so-called "Schools" are students 98% of the time themselves. It truly is a situation of the Blind leading the Blind. To give you an Idea of how utterly inefficient the system is here, another example. You are flying in a training area location (A box of airspace that you are restricted to, I.e, 2 miles wide, 2 miles long and perhaps 1000 feet of vertical height), 15 miles away from the airport and suddenly ATC (yes the student ATC controllers) report that an inbound flight is due to arrive in 40 minutes. Well, that's great you think, let them arrive and leave us out of it. Bzzzt, wrong answer. The inbound flight is a CRJ and that means clear the sky. So even though the inbound flight has absolutely nothing to do with you, and additionally, has absolutely no chance of even being remotely in a sector near to you, you are required to return to the airport and thats it, training complete. Now there are "some" rare cases that you may be able to goto another "box" and wait for the mighty CRJ to accomplish his arrival, but that is more of a rarity or if you happen to be in the "right" / "lucky" Box that day. I could go on and on for hours, days even, about the intricate inadequacies of the system here and how it prevents a proper educational learning environment for pilots, but let's move onto the next topic. 4.) The Shenzhen / Kunpeng Flight Academy Contract: What you don't know, actually read, or understand can and will hurt you. The flight instructors (remember only 2 are actually flying and that is because they are prior Pan Am employees that obtained their CAAC License), that are flying, are unhappy and actually would like to leave the place to return back to Pan Am. However because of the VISA rules and connection to the CAAC in regards to flying jobs, if any of these pilots left the flying company to jump ship for another one, it could put the other flight company in jeopardy. Ie,. Shenzhen Kunpeng could possibly sue another Chinese flight school. Chinese law is very errm "different" and essentially there is a no-competition clause (that is not mentioned) but exists among both academies. To give you an idea of the corruption, unprofessionalism and inherent lies or simple complete ignorance of the reality of the sitiation that you will be told (by Christine, or by Lily, or other HR department personnel) in order to get you to China, I will be listing several examples pertaining to their still-learning operation. Additionally, I have included 3 versions of the Contractual Agreement for ANY potential flight instructor to view. The three versions of the Contractual Agreement are :
consent of Shenzhen Kunpeng Academy have re-written and essentially from the ground up created a New Contractual Agreement for the Academy. The purpose of this was to make the Academy stand by it's word and also to be truthful, with a lasting integrity to those who choose to join Shenzhen Kunpeng Academy. This was a necessary process to to "weed" out false promises and other illegal and wrong training practices and other "Chinese" flight training issues that are so prevalent in China such as ( VFR training of students in 1.3 kilometers of visibility, no weight and balance calculation, instrument training before basic PPL license etc etc.) The Contract: You will find the Current Shenzhen Kunpeng Academy Contractual Agreement as well as the New and professional version that the company doesn't want you to see or know about under the following links. Original and Current misleading Contract (that they did adopt a very FEW clauses / parts from ours and implement them into this newer Academy version) http://www.mediafire.com/?3jo1om5mv1y English Contract that is updated by our team that they don't want you to see http://www.mediafire.com/?0avya1sdy1j Chinese Contract that is updated by our team that they don't want you to see http://www.mediafire.com/?3ntm1twywby Just to give you all some basic examples of HOW their Current contract is completely ridiculous with no real intent to back any of the said promises, I shall give you some examples: They make references to various clauses or different sections that simply don't exist or exist in the wrong locations. Now I hope you ask yourselves, would you really like to work for an Academy / Company that can not even make a valid and legal document ? How about for example, a Document that tells you two versions exist, an English copy (the one that you, the potential employee would be signing), and a Chinese version (which you will also be signing). However, in the same English document that you sign, there is a clause that states, If there are any differences between the English Version and the Chinese Version, the Chinese version shall be the one that takes effect / precedence. How about the fact as I mentioned before about "waiting," that upon your arrival into Shenzhen, your newly joined company doesn't particularly know themselves how to prepare you for the start of flying operations? Shenzhen Kunpeng Academy has come to me directly looking for ideas on the process of starting any newly hired instructors to enable them to start flying as quickly as possible. Would you not find it strange that a Company owned in part by a Major Chinese airline would not already have the proper procedures and methods of enabling newly hired instructors to perform their jobs after arrival? Interesting isn't it? One would think that things would be better prepared / handled prior to allowing instructors arriving. The result? Kunpeng may have numerous instructors waiting, sitting, doing other busy work while the Academy figures out how to get these newly hired instructors "China" qualified. Enough of that, simply review the contracts and decide for yourselves. Moving on.. 5.) Real life examples (outcomes) as a result of the serious Training Deficiencies that have occurred within China with more frequency than any other location on Earth:
point mentioned above: What this "instructor" allowed to happen is a mistake that no pilot, especially an "Instructor pilot", should ever do. We all (should) know that take-off and landings / approaches are one of the most dangerous / task saturated time periods with regard to flight safety and require our utmost attention to detail. Before take-off checks and last minute line-up checks are things that should be so ingrained by the (proper) usage of flow-checks and checklist completion and planning, that they become second nature. For our aircraft here and per our SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures), at anytime prior to takeoff (for a controllable pitch aircraft), we verify that the mixture is set to optimum (based on density altitude / temperature), that the fuel pumps are on, the propeller is full Forward, and that power is smoothly applied from 0 percent to 100 percent over a 3~5 second time period. During this power application time period of 3~5 seconds, we are also scanning the engine instruments to verify that we reach our maximum RPM of 2700 +/- 20rpm and that all engine indications are "green" and no abnormal engine "sounds" or "vibrations / shaking of the aircraft is occurring. The key thing to also be aware of is that during power application (3~5 seconds), the aircraft "may" move forward a total of about 10 ~ 15 feet maximum. Now, during this time, checking and verifying that the aircraft is ready to "go", (3~5 seconds + engine stabilization time = approx 7 seconds) determines whether we continue or discontinue the takeoff phase. What this "instructor" did is created two problems for himself that were unnecessary. First he chose to take off from an intersection that left him with VERY little runway remaining and Second, did NOT put the propeller into the full forward (high RPM) position. As a result of this, after full power application, the engine never reached the required RPM due to the prop lever being only half way forward. Not only did he forget / not follow checklist procedures, he then continued to not check and verify that the engine was only producing a fraction of it's power. A hint would have been clear as day, had he looked at the Engine prop lever position, looked at the instruments and even more obvious, listened to the sound of the engine. As the aircraft continued to roll forward, obviously much slower than normally expected, the "take-off" roll was becoming longer and longer. This is mind boggling, because not only did the "instructor" allow the aircraft to continue rolling forward, gaining speed extremely slowly, he allowed the aircraft to continue until eventually (just barely) reaching our Vr speed of 59 knots. The problem with this is that at that point he had about 50 feet of runway remaining in front of him. Unable to climb or gain speed, the airplane never "lifted off the ground." The instructor at that point and at that point only decided to close the throttle. What he forgot to do was apply the brakes. Not once did the instructor apply the brakes in any effort to stop on the runway or the over-run area. Mind boggling, considering that this instructor previously flew Mig 29's, isn't it? The airplane went off the runway, and during it's "stroll" through the dirt "off-roading," the propeller hit rocks, damaging the engine (which requires the engine to be torn down completely and inspected, or a new replacement engine etc). Now here is a "crash course" (yes yes, pun intended) into some of the "Chinese CAAC" logic that we are dealing with. Considering that we know what happened, and that the airplane's propeller eventually "hit rocks," the bright minds at the CAAC determined that "If the airport did not have "rocks" (big or small) out side of the runway environment, this situation would have never been a real "problem." If you aren't rolling your eyes by now, I'll do it for you. I would / could only imagine that in any other country, the idea of the "rocks" being the "problem" is laughable at best. So now for the past 1.5 weeks, we have been having a Stand-down / no-fly period until the "rocks" are removed from the outside areas of the runway. By the way these rocks ranging anywhere from about 1 inch to 1 foot tall are well over 20 + meters from all sides of the runway. This is a typical story of an event that was completely preventable, but once again, because of the way that "Training / Learning" is accomplished here, this is the result. And with that onto the next subject.. 6.) Future goals and how to achieve them: We all should have safety as the number one priority in any flight. Safety, however is something that comes as a result of proper training techniques, high standards being upheld, and nothing but the greatest of performance expected throughout the initial and continuing stages of becoming a pilot. For anyone choosing to come to these locations, you need to be in it for two specific purposes. Of course you need to be more adventurous and willing to travel the world and be "out of your element" a bit, but on a more important note, you need to be willing to ALWAYS do your best regardless of the pressures that you WILL come across to be mediocre. You also need to be able to teach well enough and truly break down their social / cultural walls to get them to in full honesty, apply what you have taught them otherwise the moment that you leave and a typical Chinese Military instructor comes in to the picture, they will CONTINUE to fall back into the problems that have existed before. By coming here, people (Foreign Flight Instructor Teams) need to also stick together on issues (involving anything ranging from Flight Standards to Medical insurance, to what food the cafeteria is serving on Thursday's) and, yes, I am serious because otherwise the Chinese will try to manipulate you. All wishing to come need to be willing to not fear reprisal from corrupt company leaders for doing the safe and CORRECT thing AT ALL TIMES. Training should be carried out according to PERFORMANCE of the student in the eyes of the qualified instructor, not by a piece of paper that has an "hourly" flight requirement to be met. In closing this long long post, I'd like to say that China does have great potential, but it also has HUGE problems that are innately connected to its 5,000 + years of history and in the way in which it accomplishes things. Any questions or comments are welcomed. Thank you for reading. |
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December 26th, 2007, 17:38
| #2 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: stl
Posts: 457
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
Yea I know but if you make it you get to fly a CRJ or even an A340... Seriously that is very scary. We get scared over here from foreign students at uncontrolled places imagine what it's like over there. I've also heard that airlines in China pretty much have no ground school for FOs and that's it's pretty much on the job training is that true??
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December 26th, 2007, 20:13
| #3 | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 97
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China Quote:
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December 26th, 2007, 20:17
| #4 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT
Posts: 12,869
  | Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
Wait...I thought Asia was the most amazingist place ever and there was nothing wrong with it and the United States blows hard chunks? This is certainly interesting coming from you man.
__________________  "Jetlink 2940, on another radio, contact clearance for new airways..." |
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December 26th, 2007, 21:15
| #5 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,396
  | Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
Seriously, tell us how you really feel.  Interesting/scary reading about the cultural differences.
__________________ Commercial Pilot - ASEL, AMEL, Instrument CFI/II 1050TT CRJ-700 FO at Southernjets Connection Former flight instructor out of KBWI and W29 Loves Dutch chicks "jtrain609: I wish I had a pair" |
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December 27th, 2007, 09:12
| #6 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: RKNN
Posts: 185
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
John dude, how are you man, Miss ya man, you helped my @$$ all those times hauling me back and forth to the school and others.  I've seen that you're doing pretty good with the whole express jet deal, good stuff man. I definitely remember the whole "egg" days. Back then I mostly was referencing to South Korea (highly modern, very intelligent, hard working nation) as well as Thailand (country that has at times less than China, but is still more hardworking, advanced, and great overall) The thing with China is that essentially, for every bad thing I've said, there are also positives, but again, this doesn't really come into play with the whole "Aviation / Flight Training" side of things. I did forget to mention some of the positives however, such as pay and the overall ability to have a "higher-than-average" life style compared to being back in the states. For example, some times I won't fly for 2 weeks, 3 weeks, hell,.. even a month (which isn't good for the gaining of flight hours / career side of things) but getting 3,000+++++ a month + free 4 star living accommodation for free, all the time is a benefit. Anyhow, I've been hired by a Thai Airline but am also getting offers from Chinese careers as well, but there is a "small" part of me, missing Western Aviation (Ie, the ability to simply get in and Go), Ｉguess I'll just have to see what path I take in the next couple of months. Also, What I'd like to do if possible is make this thread somewhat of a sticky to actually give the guys / girls who are looking at coming over to China for the purpose of being at an Academy, the opportunity to get a no-bu11#### explanation of what to expect overall. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'd like to throw that out there to Doug or one of the moderators. Anyway, good being able to inform you all. Thanks for reading. And John, if I ever get back to America, and get the chance, I'll surprise you and treat ya to a beer, and I'll even drink one too.   -JoE |
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December 27th, 2007, 11:30
| #7 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,389
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
Thanks for the info. My perception is that Asia has cultural issues, in general, that are fueling a demand for foreign nationals to move into left seats. But China may set a whole new low standard. Language, as in unwilling/unable to learn workable english, seems to be a big problem there too. Agree that S Korea is towards the top of the pack. Their airlines are leading in Asia especially with their business models.
__________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. — Henry Ford |
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December 27th, 2007, 16:48
| #8 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2006 Location: Live in Arlington, TX - From Ithaca, NY - Wish I was on an island in Fiji
Posts: 1,948
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China Quote:
Rant over. | |
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December 27th, 2007, 17:13
| #9 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,526
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China Quote:
Here at least pilots do actually understand what the Gleim questions are asking. I spent many 8 hour nights in the cockpit doing cross countries with my Chinese students. I've talked with them extensively about their education system in general and the gist of it is, GET AN A+ on an assignment no matter what you have to do to get it. Cheating isn't cheating, it's a way of getting a good grade. As Flyover's post also mentioned, they will say yes sir until you literally prove that they don't know what they claim to know. There is no critical thinking. They have too much difficulty reasoning through problems. The 10% of them that I flew with that did not have any of this apply to them were absolutely in command of the airplane and were a joy to fly with. They were the exceptions but the majority fall into the other category. One student I flew with sent an e-mail to his former instructor a few weeks ago to update him on how training was going. He said a month or two before, he'd been up flying a sim or a real plane with one of the instructors (this is in China, after having come back from the US with his multi-engine commercial). He did something wrong, I don't know what, maybe got off his altitude or forgot a memory item or something, and the instructor punched him. Well, his nose bled onto one or two of the instruments in front of him. After a minute or two, the instructor finally passed him a tissue and just as the student reached to dab his face off, the instructor yelled something to the effect of, "No, clean the instrument off you idiot!" They've got a long way to go.
__________________ Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history. | |
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December 27th, 2007, 18:31
| #10 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CFI / CFII in PA
Posts: 2,742
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
Nice. It's like Whack-a-Mole only while flying. Daddy like. |
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December 27th, 2007, 18:32
| #11 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 2,987
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
I taught Chinese students at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Fort Pierce, FL back in 2005. Everything perpetual says about Chinese culture is dead on accurate. I was a brand new CFI, and they gave me 3 Chinese students. One of them was the super-star of the entire class, why? because he actually wanted to learn and try his hardest to succeed. He passed every check-ride on the first try. My other student was a textbook case of Chinese culture. He couldn't understand why he kept failing every stage check. He couldn't understand why he was the last in his class to solo. Letting these people fly at an uncontrolled airport was suicide. They want no responsibility. He never cracked a book. He barely passed his written tests with a 70% and he probably cheated to get that. He didn't understand why he had to learn English. As a new CFI I thought I was doing something wrong. Maybe I wasn't a good motivator or teacher. But as I built the hours, and experience, I realized it was their culture, and not me. Then a big break came. Pan Am got the Korean contract, and I was able to jump ship and go Korean. The South Koreans are 100% different than the Chinese. My 3 Korean students had already memorized the POH for the aircraft we flew. They new more about the dang thing than I did and I thought I new it pretty well. They had already studied and read about all the maneuvers we had to do. They showed up early for lessons, and stayed late afterward discussing the lessons with their piers. I was amazed at their work ethic, and the pride they had for what they had accomplished. Teaching these guys made my job easy, in fact it didn't even feel like a job, I just got to go flying every day. How cool was that!! I wouldn't touch China with a 10 foot pole. 
__________________ Twin boys!   |
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February 10th, 2008, 07:23
| #12 |
| Newbie Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 3
| Re: Shenzhen Kunpeng and Flight Training Academies in China
So..... I think China is out of the question for me when it comes to instructing. Are there other options in Asia I could consider? What about Singapore? Also, do these Asian Flight Schools offer advancement to the airlines once a contract is up? Thanks!
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