Mesa Pilot Development Training: Avoid!!

[RJ Guy]

I spent the last 4 months here in Farmington New Mexico under the PACE program offered at Mesa. I would recommend you avoid this program for the following reasons. The old boss has been replaced by a new one and now nobody knows who the real boss is. This is because the school and its policies are dictated and run by teenage girls. No JOKE!!! Dispatchers purposely block other students form access to training, the groundschool run by J... is a lame f-around, and the structure promised in the brochures is replaced by bitter flight instructors and unprepared groundschool instructors....
go somewhere else every body who learned the hard way is.

[P&H]

Why am I not surprised...

How much money is this program setting people back anyway

[armani]

I used to fly to FMN while working at Lakes and my girlfriend was going to school there at the time (thats how we met). Put it this way after we started dating I recommened she leave and go somewhere else for school. She quite right before she got her private had already racked up 35,000 in loans. She is now finishing her ratings at a local FBO for that entire amount. Everything you said above is very true one of her good friends was in dispatch and it politcs when you get to fly even if you got the slot at lotto they will take it from you to put thier friend in the slot. In my opinion the training was horrible when I would over night we would have study sessions with her roommates who where going on thier private pilot checkrides. First question what the dimensions of class D airspace response we don't need to know that becasue we'll be flying a CRJ my instructor told me. Now they are all finishing up they are so mad at the school they turned thier Mesa interviews down and what me to write them letters to get hired at Lakes. They are all over 100,000 in debt with no CFI's most of them had to take living out of thier student loans because the school would not let them have jobs. They want you fly at anytime during the day back to the whole dispatch thing. I recommend everybody avoid this school.

[JEP]

How did the program end for you, if it has ended yet?

Sorry for the bad experience. Looks like you found JC too late, it has been
coverd over and over again here.

Are they having any trouble filling the program?

[cfii2007]

I actually considered their PACE program for those that have a Commercial ticket.

At the time, I could not fathom spending $20,000 for the opportunity to work at Mesa.

[Murdoughnut]

Originally Posted by RJ Guy

This is because the school and its policies are dictated and run by teenage girls. No JOKE!!!

Then it should be easy to get ahead - just tell them you love them, buy them something shiny, don't get them pregnant, and boom! Right seat, CRJ baby!

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by RJ Guy

I spent the last 4 months here in Farmington New Mexico under the PACE program offered at Mesa. I would recommend you avoid this program for the following reasons. The old boss has been replaced by a new one and now nobody knows who the real boss is. This is because the school and its policies are dictated and run by teenage girls. No JOKE!!! Dispatchers purposely block other students form access to training, the groundschool run by J... is a lame f-around, and the structure promised in the brochures is replaced by bitter flight instructors and unprepared groundschool instructors....
go somewhere else every body who learned the hard way is.

I've posted my thoughts previously that the piloting profession needs to change the way it brings pilots into the profession. The posts in this thread highlight my concerns.

If programs are being run like the posters are illustrating, I don't think the program is becoming of an educational institution capable of bringing quality people into the profession.

The piloting profession is in desperate need of cleaning up training institutions. There would be no better way, IMO, than for an accreditation agency composed of industry players to certify and decertify each institution that trains pilots for professional employment and certification.

I think the University Aviation Association does a very good job in this respect. Outside of the universities I am very suspect of the quality of training and applicants.

It sure doesn't seem as though the FAA is interested in this. As members of the professional pilot community...we should be extremely concerned about this.

[CamYZ125]

Just a quick note:

I don't know much about the MAPD in FMN, but the MPD 4-year program with Arizona State University in my opinion is on par with on collegiate aviation programs. And it is an accredited university program as well. From what I hear, the MAPD in FMN seems to really be falling apart and attendance seems to be dropping like a rock. But that makes sense to me- the industry is quite a bit different from when the MAPD/Pace programs were instituted.

[wheelsup]

That's too bad, I worked there under the Rich Castle days...he ran a tight ship. He was a nice guy but didn't hesitate to kick people out if they weren't finishing on time. The ab-initio program was as close to a military type school that you could get as far as civilian schools go. I can't vouch for the training as I never was "trained" there but I honestly felt that the students got excellent training for their dollar. There were furloughed major guys there teaching ground school, the experience level of the ground instructors was staggering. I can't comment on the RJ training but I know most of the people teaching it were Mesa RJ CA's, and they don't just give type ratings away. It might have been a bit more expensive but WTF do you expect you're soloing in a $500k Bonanza, the skills and habits the students acquired flying that aircraft will help tremendously down the line.

As far as spending $100k on training…I really don't see how it could go THAT high. I talked to several of my end students doing the Baron and including all costs they had spent around $55k-$60k - that includes living expenses.

I knew something was up when I emailed Rich a few weeks ago and it bounced. It sucks that the school is going downhill, it really was a good school, I know nobody will ever believe me but Rich & Co ran a really great school.

[RJ Guy]

Update:
Like many other Mesa students the program ended with me signing up with another facility for my CRJ training.
As far as the costs involved...well at least I got my multi checkride out of the way...
But I must stress this above all...the program is run by amateurs and the curricullum has no internal controls. The flight line is a disaster. The student is ultimately blamed for not meeting the time requirements.
Spend your time elsewhere...anywhere...and warn all your friends about this place.

[kellwolf]

My question: why pay for CRJ training at all? The airline that hires you will provide that free of charge....and pay you on top of that!

I thought about MAPD for a while. One of my best friends went there, and it worked out well for him....up until he got hired at Mesa and started hating life. Now he's an FO at Skywest. The thing that made me decided against MAPD is that I could spend less $$ on my instructor ratings and actually GET something for my money. MAPD offered me basically an interview at Mesa for about $15K, but that was about it. I'm glad I took the route I did instead.

As for the not needing to know the deminsions of Class D....WHAT? They do know that a LOT of the airports CRJs fly into actually ARE Class D, right?

[SmitteyB]

Really? Our beloved MAPD?

NO!!!!!

[germb747]

Originally Posted by armani

First question what the dimensions of class D airspace response we don't need to know that becasue we'll be flying a CRJ my instructor told me.

I always love it when people ask that question, "What are the dimensions of Class D Airspace?" There are no dimensions--it's as depicted on the chart. Generally, it's a 5 mile radius and 2500ft AGL, but there are many exceptions.

But really, in an IFR environment, who cares?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by germb747

I always love it when people ask that question, "What are the dimensions of Class D Airspace?" There are no dimensions--it's as depicted on the chart. Generally, it's a 5 mile radius and 2500ft AGL, but there are many exceptions.

But really, in an IFR environment, who cares?

You should. ATC might not tell you when to slow down before dropping you into Class D or Class C.....or even below Class B. If you're not aware of where you are, you can quickly find yourself busting a speed limit b/c you descended into Class D. The controllers here in MEM were on a kick for a while of dropping guys below the Class B without telling them. It almost happened to me last week. I was thinking "We're pretty far out to be getting sent this low." So, I went ahead and pulled the speed back. CA queried ATC, and his response was "Uh.....yeah. Um....Flagship, you're leaving the Class B....you'll re-enter in about 10 miles."

Lesson is ATC is not always gonna tell you when to slow down. That's the PILOT'S responsibility.

[mastermags]

Class D and the like are Private Pilot knowledge. People that think they don't need to know things should not become commercial pilots.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by germb747

I always love it when people ask that question, "What are the dimensions of Class D Airspace?" There are no dimensions--it's as depicted on the chart. Generally, it's a 5 mile radius and 2500ft AGL, but there are many exceptions.

But really, in an IFR environment, who cares?

See, that piece of paper they give you that says you are a pilot actually allows you to go out and fly something OTHER then the shiny RJ you are having wet dreams about. Does that mean if you ever take a Cessna up you are going to go IFR just so you don't have to worry about airspace sizes?

(and by you, I mean the general "you")

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by germb747

I always love it when people ask that question, "What are the dimensions of Class D Airspace?" There are no dimensions--it's as depicted on the chart. Generally, it's a 5 mile radius and 2500ft AGL, but there are many exceptions.

But really, in an IFR environment, who cares?

I care.

When I'm doing my departure briefing I make sure to clarify the kind of airspace we're departing out of so we know how fast we can go. Our normal profile calls for us to start accelerating to 240 knots as soon as we hit Vfs (which is maybe 175 knots or so), but that's well under 2,500' AGL and WAY less than 5 miles from the primary airport. If we're in class B airspace, it doesn't matter and we can continue our normal profile. If we're in class C or D airspace we need to hold 200 knots until we either get 5 miles away from the airport or pass through 2,500' AGL.

Now my airplane makes it pretty easy, 'cause our radar altimeter goes away when we pass through 2,500' AGL so it's pretty obvious when you're safe to transition to 240 knots, but it still affects the call out that I'm going to make on the departure ("Speed hold 200" vs. "Flight Level Change," which is the function that holds 240 knots for us).

[kellwolf]

Man, those call outs are confusing. I like "speed mode" or "vertical speed" better.

Our profile is 200 kts up to 3000 AGL, so we don't get bitten by the speed issue on climb out. It's descents where you have to watch yourself. Either way, you're getting paid to fly the airplane, not rely on ATC.

[PatrickCPS]

I could not agree more. We had the FAA at our place all day yesterday, and got in a long talk with our POI regarding the state of the industry. The short, unfortunate answer is that the FAA does not have the manpower to babysit the flight training industry. As long as you're not crashing planes, their eyes are off you.

It really saddens me when I hear of a student who has had the misfortune of being involved with the "less professional" institutions (yes, I'm being PC), and to some degree it does highlight the value in doing homework before enrolling wherever you are going to do your training. On the flip side, those places that operate like this should not be allowed to take money from those who really don't have it (which is all too often the case).

I would like to think that the at the current level of professional pilot hiring, with the ensuing increase in the gross number of flight students preparing for those jobs, will cause the FAA to step in a have a bit more oversight as to who will become the next generation of professional pilots. Only time will tell.

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I've posted my thoughts previously that the piloting profession needs to change the way it brings pilots into the profession. The posts in this thread highlight my concerns.

If programs are being run like the posters are illustrating, I don't think the program is becoming of an educational institution capable of bringing quality people into the profession.

The piloting profession is in desperate need of cleaning up training institutions. There would be no better way, IMO, than for an accreditation agency composed of industry players to certify and decertify each institution that trains pilots for professional employment and certification.

I think the University Aviation Association does a very good job in this respect. Outside of the universities I am very suspect of the quality of training and applicants.

It sure doesn't seem as though the FAA is interested in this. As members of the professional pilot community...we should be extremely concerned about this.

[the_dmn8tr]

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I care.

When I'm doing my departure briefing I make sure to clarify the kind of airspace we're departing out of so we know how fast we can go. Our normal profile calls for us to start accelerating to 240 knots as soon as we hit Vfs (which is maybe 175 knots or so), but that's well under 2,500' AGL and WAY less than 5 miles from the primary airport. If we're in class B airspace, it doesn't matter and we can continue our normal profile. If we're in class C or D airspace we need to hold 200 knots until we either get 5 miles away from the airport or pass through 2,500' AGL.

Now my airplane makes it pretty easy, 'cause our radar altimeter goes away when we pass through 2,500' AGL so it's pretty obvious when you're safe to transition to 240 knots, but it still affects the call out that I'm going to make on the departure ("Speed hold 200" vs. "Flight Level Change," which is the function that holds 240 knots for us).

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Man, those call outs are confusing. I like "speed mode" or "vertical speed" better.

Our profile is 200 kts up to 3000 AGL, so we don't get bitten by the speed issue on climb out. It's descents where you have to watch yourself. Either way, you're getting paid to fly the airplane, not rely on ATC.

Dang RJ drivers.

[kellwolf]

Eh, you're just jealous b/c we have an AP that isn't an FO.

[Seggy]

Seriously John, that is like a doctors dissertation for only a small freaking part of the freaking departure briefing.

I prefer...

K.I.S.S.



Is this what you think about when you are monitoring your fancy smancy jet??? I have a lot less to monitor and much more to fly.

[sdfcvoh]

I was in Farmington the other day and got this great shot of a Mesa PD plane with a huge tumbleweed stuck underneath it. Classic (and fitting)!

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by germb747

I always love it when people ask that question, "What are the dimensions of Class D Airspace?" There are no dimensions--it's as depicted on the chart. Generally, it's a 5 mile radius and 2500ft AGL, but there are many exceptions.

But really, in an IFR environment, who cares?

Not to sound like a smart A** but the "typical" Class delta is 4 miles by 025 agl not including the occasional extensions for instrument approaches of course.