Stating the obviously unbovious

[pilot602]

The airline(s) run on training YOU paid for. Both at the private level and the airline level as they take the cost of training out of your first year pay.

They run on YOUR certificates.

They run on YOUR medical.

They sell YOUR skill set (and certificate/medical combo) to the public.

It's YOUR skill set that allows an aircraft to be moved from point A to point B. Every other job at the airline (including the CEO) is there to facilitate YOU moving that aircraft.

That being said the other job functions are important vital pieces to the puzzle and should be paid accordingly but that doesn't change the fact they are supporting roles.

With all this in mind, a plumber, contractor, lawyer, doctor all hold their certificates and licenses up as something valuable and charge accordingly for other's use of them (via services rendered).

Yet in aviation we've been beaten down to the point where we sell OUR certificates and medicals to the absolute lowest bidder and no one has the balls to tell these guys to go stick it and charge accordingly.

Just something to think about on your next four-day.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Bad day at the office? All true though. Pilots are considered a liability for a company, when they should be considered an asset.

[turbojet28]

This is the way pilots should think. So, just as an honest question for discussion, why is flying different than those other trades? What has transpired that make sit different? I believe it is because flying is considered in the wide public eye as "fun" job. It really is a shame that people don't look at pilots as assets and responsible for safety more than just the fact that they have a "fun and easy" job. I believe less people would enter the profession if the MAIN focus and thought was about the MASSIVE amount of responsibility that comes with the skill.

[wheelsup]

I sometimes think pilots are also out of touch with reality. $75k for a first year CA (4th year pay), $80k for a 5th year guy, $92k for a 7 year guy...that's a lot of money for a 50 seat CA working 14 - 16 days a month.

Don't even try and compare our job set to a doctor...you can't write a $50k check and 90 days later be a doctor.

If you want more pay go to corporate, you are dispatch, mx coordinator, customer service desk, flight attendant, pilot, cleaner, and sometimes chauffeur. That's why they make more money.

It almost sounds like really like what you do but want more money. Everyone wants that. Judging by your past you are more than qualified to make a jump to another more lucrative position somewhere else.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I sometimes think pilots are also out of touch with reality. $75k for a first year CA (4th year pay), $80k for a 5th year guy, $92k for a 7 year guy...that's a lot of money for a 50 seat CA working 14 - 16 days a month.

Don't even try and compare our job set to a doctor...you can't write a $50k check and 90 days later be a doctor.

If you want more pay go to corporate, you are dispatch, mx coordinator, customer service desk, flight attendant, pilot, cleaner, and sometimes chauffeur. That's why they make more money.

It almost sounds like really like what you do but want more money. Everyone wants that. Judging by your past you are more than qualified to make a jump to another more lucrative position somewhere else.

Not complaining, no bad day at the office, just a piece to make people think. Nor do I think 50 to 80k for a 50 is all that bad. But not everyone makes that and you know this.


That said this is kind of an odd statement coming from someone with www.doihaveafuturehere.org as their signature.

[wheelsup]

The Do I have a Future Here? campaign is about management respecting pilots and their judgment, not about making more money. Something your post (and mine) didn't touch on. So I would say it's not an odd statement.

[falconvalley]

One problem is though we are technically blue collar "labor", we don't labor very much in our work, thanks to agreements. There are a bunch of white collar thinkers in the pilot groups. That doesn't surprise me one bit. We don't turn wrenches, sit in cherry pickers next to thousands of volts, or troubeshoot a desperate housewife's kitchen leak. We fly airplanes. We aren't required to have a PhD, yet we hold the lives of the public in our hands and rely on our training and xp to do our jobs safely. It is virtually impossible for us to throw up our hands and go into private practice. Thankfully not, because insurance for that would be insane. We're not talking about 1 dead person from an out-patient procedure. We're talking about multiple lives and and potential property damage. The next best thing, is getting out of the airlines, and finding a flying job that is not blue collar.There are lots of things we can control and lots of things we just can't. We can demand better pay and QOL all we want, but we have to do the right things to get it. We don't have the control that private labor folks have.If I really wanted out, I could look around for a corporate job that would start me at at least 40k a year. They are out there, but are more difficult to obtain and the benefits are different. Or I could stay in the airlines, where there are more jobs, and it's considered blue collar and treated as such. I don't anticipate to be treated and paid like a corporate pilot. Corporate pilots generally make more starting out don't have quite as steep of a pay increase throughout their career. They are generally more carefully selected and treated better because their service is more personal. The people flying on the aircraft have more power to select who will get them from point a to point b and want the best. I anticipate to be treated like an asset. A part of the company that costs money and is part of the revenue engine.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I sometimes think pilots are also out of touch with reality. $75k for a first year CA (4th year pay), $80k for a 5th year guy, $92k for a 7 year guy...that's a lot of money for a 50 seat CA working 14 - 16 days a month.

Don't even try and compare our job set to a doctor...you can't write a $50k check and 90 days later be a doctor.

If you want more pay go to corporate, you are dispatch, mx coordinator, customer service desk, flight attendant, pilot, cleaner, and sometimes chauffeur. That's why they make more money.

It almost sounds like really like what you do but want more money. Everyone wants that. Judging by your past you are more than qualified to make a jump to another more lucrative position somewhere else.

So let's take a different pespective on it then (as I sit in a hotel room on layover watching the baseball steriod report news confrence). What about athletes? They love what they do and they make ridiculous amounts of money. To get to the professional level requires years of training and work. Yet no one seems to argue their wages. Food for thought?

[I_Money]

A 4 hour flight from Boston to LA revenue - $92,000

A 4 hour baseball game at Fenway - $15,800,000

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

What about athletes?

What about them? Pilots are a dime a dozen, there aren't that many talented athletes out there. Not even a comparison. I honestly can't believe you'd compare a pro sports athlete to a pilot!?!

They love what they do and they make ridiculous amounts of money.

Yes they do. I don't watch sports, I could care less, but to the majority of the American population it is a big part of their life. Why??? Apparently it's important enough to pay mega bucks for tickets, TV channels, etc. and support those ridiculous salaries.

To get to the professional level requires years of training and work.

To become an airline pilot these days you need 90 days and a check for $50 grand, and a moderate amount of hand / eye coordination that is developed by playing video games.

Food for thought?

Nope. Here's some food for thought, in the mid 20's pilots made $8,000/year flying mail, or about $1,000,000/year in todays dollars. Of course, a significant number of them also died while working.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by I_Money

A 4 hour flight from Boston to LA revenue - $92,000

A 4 hour baseball game at Fenway - $15,800,000

And why that price discrepancy? Because they keep jacking up ticket prices to keep pace with the salaries and marketing and merchandising. What do the airlines keep doing? Cutting fares.

Not saying it's a necessarily a very good comparison from athlete to airline pilot, but no one ever whines about them looking for more money. What at all is important or even particularly useful about what they do? Nothing. You can make that argument about us too. Point is, we're not paid enough as pilots anymore and there's no amount of arguing otherwise that will change that fact. Wheels, you're not going to change my opinion on the matter so don't bother trying. I though that while I was in the AF before I considered getting an airline job and I think that now.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

And why that price discrepancy? Because they keep jacking up ticket prices to keep pace with the salaries and marketing and merchandising. What do the airlines keep doing? Cutting fares.

Do you think the airlines WANT to keep cutting fares? Or do they HAVE to keep cutting fares?

I think it's the latter. There was a time when UAL was making almost $1,000,000,000.00 per year. Do you think management doesn't WANT to go back to that?!?

Take the blinders off.

Wheels, you're not going to change my opinion on the matter so don't bother trying.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. You asked "Food for thought?" as if you wanted to discuss it, therefore I am.

[Rocketman99]

Yes, but why is that? Because they raise a fare and the next guy lowers theirs to make a killing and take their business. Their solution of cuttring amenities and services and prics just takes away the reason someone would fly a legacy vs some crappy startup in the first place. No reason to pay a premier price if you're gonna get the same lousy service!!

[Wing_96]

A large amount of revenue also comes from sponsorship in the athletes' world. Their salaries are not paid purely by ticket sales.

So maybe the airlines should solicit money from Budweiser, and the like?

The PA announcement could be like this:

"Today's flight is brought to you by Budweiser. Please drink responsibly."

[Rocketman99]

Like I said, it's not really an ideal comparison but some of the ideas and principles are similar. No blinders here man, I see all the bs.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by Wing_96

A large amount of revenue also comes from sponsorship in the athletes' world. Their salaries are not paid purely by ticket sales.

So maybe the airlines should solicit money from Budweiser, and the like?

The PA announcement could be like this:

"Today's flight is brought to you by Budweiser. Please drink responsibly."

Skybus is doing that. I remember seeing their "Nationwide" airbus when I was based in CMH.

[Wing_96]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Like I said, it's not really an ideal comparison but some of the ideas and principles are similar. No blinders here man, I see all the bs.

The one thing that athletes do well for each other is they try to get more money rather than accept less. Pilots do the complete opposite.

"Pilot A" will do the job for $35k/year and then in walks "Pilot B" who says in effect "Screw Pilot A, I'll do the job for $25k/year." Athletes don't do that. They say, if "Pilot A" is making $35k/year, then you should be paying me (Pilot B) $40k/year.

[Rocketman99]

And that's another thing that baffles me about us. We're supposedly like 99% type A personalities like athletes and yet instead of fighting we continue to succumb.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Wing_96

"Pilot A" will do the job for $35k/year and then in walks "Pilot B" who says in effect "Screw Pilot A, I'll do the job for $25k/year." Athletes don't do that. They say, if "Pilot A" is making $35k/year, then you should be paying me (Pilot B) $40k/year.

As pilots get older and more experienced, their pay rates go up. As athletes get older and more experienced, their pay rates go down (to zero) when they retire.

That being said, by the time they retire they have waaaaaaaay more than enough money in the bank to do so. I just think it's bordering on ludicrous comparing a run of the mill pilot to a sports star.

Come back to the real world and we'll talk.

[aloft]

"unbovious"?

[Wing_96]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

As pilots get older and more experienced, their pay rates go up. As athletes get older and more experienced, their pay rates go down (to zero) when they retire.

That being said, by the time they retire they have waaaaaaaay more than enough money in the bank to do so. I just think it's bordering on ludicrous comparing a run of the mill pilot to a sports star.

Come back to the real world and we'll talk.

I'm in the real world. Let's talk.

I'm not saying that there can be a direct comparison between athletes and pilots because that's not possible. So, you are right. It would be ludicrous to make that comparison. Rather, I am suggesting that there are some things that we as pilots could do to improve our future, and not stabbing each other in the back would probably be a good start.

[wheelsup]

Pattern bargaining worked really really well until economic downturn hit. Reference Comair then AWAC's pre 9/11 contracts, those were pretty decent for the regional level.

Like the stock market, the higher they went the harder they fell. Pattern bargaining worked in reverse (in managements favor) when concession time came.

Not many pilot groups actively stabbed each other in the back. Lately the only two off the top of my head was SkyWest with their agreement to fly larger aircraft of the same type for one pay rate and Gojets. Every other concession I can think of was either due to a bankruptcy court forcing the pay cuts (Comair, Mesaba) or pilots that thought they needed to take a pay cut in order to remain competitive and keep their jobs.

[JetJok]

If training expenses keep skyrocketing, airline companies are going to have to make it beneficial for us to come work for them. If flight schools now are offering free CFII, MEI ratings just to work for them, hopefully this same pilot crisis will hit the airlines and they are going to start offering 5-10k bonuses as a new hire.

Oh well at least it made sense when I started, I forgot that i was talking about the airlines. They will screw us no matter what.

[skydog]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

So let's take a different pespective on it then (as I sit in a hotel room on layover watching the baseball steriod report news confrence). What about athletes? They love what they do and they make ridiculous amounts of money. To get to the professional level requires years of training and work. Yet no one seems to argue their wages. Food for thought?

Athletes are revenue generators. People buy tickets to sporting events in order to see a particular athlete play. Back when Jordan was playing, you couldn't steal a Bulls ticket, because there was that much interest in him. No one buys a plane ticket because a certain pilot is flying, or because a certain airline has a reputation of having the best pilots.

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by pilot602

The airline(s) run on training YOU paid for. Both at the private level and the airline level as they take the cost of training out of your first year pay.

They run on YOUR certificates.

They run on YOUR medical.

They sell YOUR skill set (and certificate/medical combo) to the public.

It's YOUR skill set that allows an aircraft to be moved from point A to point B. Every other job at the airline (including the CEO) is there to facilitate YOU moving that aircraft.

That being said the other job functions are important vital pieces to the puzzle and should be paid accordingly but that doesn't change the fact they are supporting roles.

With all this in mind, a plumber, contractor, lawyer, doctor all hold their certificates and licenses up as something valuable and charge accordingly for other's use of them (via services rendered).

Yet in aviation we've been beaten down to the point where we sell OUR certificates and medicals to the absolute lowest bidder and no one has the balls to tell these guys to go stick it and charge accordingly.

Just something to think about on your next four-day.

I am by no means saying FO's should NOT get paid more. However, the careers you mentioned need to be broken down a little into what really happenes.
As a plumber, you must actually start out as a laborer, or if you know someone directly as an apprentice (Defintion; One bound by legal agreement to work for another for a specific amount of time in return for instruction in a trade, art, or business.) Up to 4 years of class, and OJT as an apprentice
As an apprentice you dont make very much money, but as you learn you eventually become a journeyman. Once you make journeyman then you begin making a "living"
This is the same working as a contractor or actually contruction worker is the more appropriate word, as a contractor is just a title anyone could call themselves.

Lawyer...Well first you get a 4yr degree, then prepare for the lsat, if that goes well well 3 more years in law school. Then you get the opportunity to take the bar (which could be compared to the ATP) before you get to actually practice law and your into this for 7 years now.

A doctor...this one is a tough one. Lets see 12 years give or take for school, once you graduate you begin your post grad internship for a year (here is a write up I have on internship..Interns have a reputation of being hazed and mentally harassed by senior residents, veteran nurses, and attending physicians as part of their "trial by fire" training. This often may involve verbal and emotional abuse, sleep deprivation, overwork and excessive scut work and other forms of intimidation in the name of "medical training". There may also be unethical economic reasons for the overwork of interns and junior interns), then you do your residency which is another 3-7 years, and then possibly a fellowship.
I have a good friend going through her internship right now, and another friend who's wife is a pediatric GP who has her own practice. I can tell you after her bills are paid, a major ca is making more then her!!! with a fraction of the the cost and time to aquire the training.
As someone else pointed out 90 days and $50 grand gets you a job in the right seat. Ave. the time in training for those listed above your looking at 10 years in training. where will you be with 10 years seniority?

Again, I think its absolutley crazy for a burger flipper to be able to make almost as much as an FO flying a multi million dollar airplane with up to 90 people in back, but its just as crazy to put a 300 hour, no experience person in the right seat.