Stating the obviously unbovious

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by GalaxyIFE

Well, I make around 65K a year, and with that “chump change” I have a 2500 square foot house, an ’06 model year truck that is paid for, a substantial amount in savings and hell even a 50” plasma TV. I tend to think that I am LIVING the American dream. I think it is all about living within your means. If you can’t live comfortably for 65K a year then perhaps you need to sit down with a financial counselor; but to each their own. For me, 65K is a fair wage and I too am responsible for hundreds of lives, but so are city bus drivers. And man, I wouldn’t pay 200K for a condo ANYWHERE…that is just wrong.

Where are you living? Because living in Los Angeles, I don't think you could find a home in Burbank for less than a good million. SURE you could move to a slum there but I was still paying $750 a month in rent for a 200 square foot studio and the bodies kept piling up in front of my apartment complex. No thanks, bossman.

Condo's are going for $180,000 on the low end in Park City, which is where my fiance lives. She's not going to sacrifice HER career just so I can take sub standard pay in MY career. She'd leave me pretty fast if that's how our relationship went.

And city bus drivers in Lansing, MI top out at $130,000 a year, and those in Kalamazoo, MI are making $100,000 a year. So...

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

Sorry John gotta disagree. $19k is certainly chump change. $65K is very livable. Sorry you cannot afford a condo in the playground of the rich, but $65k IS livable. I will make around $75k this year, Well over 100 with my wife's salary added in. We have a beautiful 6 year old home, all the bells and whistles, in ground pool with a pretty waterfall etc..... Even with me shelling out $3-4K per month for flying, we still live comfortably. Before planning for a future of making jack squat for a while, I bought flat screens and Nissan Titans on a whim, and we travelled all the time.

As I said, my fiance's job doesn't travel as well as mine does. She lives in Park City, and the other option is having her drive up a snow covered canyon every day to work and to be honest with you, between the high cost of gas and the chance of her getting in a car accident making that drive, living in PC is what we're faced with. Sure she could leave her job so I could move into base, but that ain't exactly fair for her is it? So I'll work on higher pay, which we need anyways, in my current career.

This is gonna discount it all for you, but it is true: In this day and age, A person could get a loan for $60k and be in the right seat of a Regional Jet in as little as 6-8 Months. I am not saying it is right, but it is true. It took longer for me to become a certified Aircraft Loadmaster, and those bastids paid me less! Grrrrr! lol.

That person can also lawn dark an RJ pretty easily and take 50 people with them. Is that the person you want flying your wife around? We should have higher standards so not everybody can get into this career.

Your vocation and that of a doctors' is hardly comparable. Also, gotta agree with others: 10 yrs of school, and ummmm, have you heard of RESIDENCY? Know the poor noobie doctor you went to see in the ER has been awake for 18-20 hours at times. They don't make jack either. I live in a town with one of the largest teaching hospitals in the state. I have a few neighbors who are residency doctors. If Mommy and Daddy had not bought them a house, they would not be my neighbors either.

So...why do people do it? Well, I am doing it because:
1) I want something more out of life than sitting in a cubicle day in and day out, with the only excitement being a good post on Jetcareers.com. Even a night in Lubbock sounds more appetizing, and yes, I have been to Lubbock.
2) Though the beginning sucks, and there is the likelihood I will get laid off for a while at least once in my career, the end result does not look bad. In fact, let's look at someone like good 'ole Cap'n Bob for example. 3 years after starting with ExpressJet, he is a Captain, I am guessing making 65-70 per year. He averages 15-17 days off per month. Thats double what I get for $10k less. In coming years, he will make more and more, with more opportunity to get more days off.
3) I have carefully planned for the extreme reduction in pay by reducing all my debt to virtually nothing, saving money, not going deep into debt for flight training, and having a backup career/job available should something happen(9/11).
4) Oh yeah...and I love flying.

Ok here's where you've gotta understand something:

Pilots are worth nothing to start.

We are only worth what we can negotiate.

We're not worth what we'll be paid, because if they could an airline would not pay us ANYTHING to do this job. We would work for free, and under that payment convention we're worth nothing because that's what somebody is willing to pay us.

We don't go into contract negotiations with the public, so they don't matter. My contract, and my pay rate, is between me and my company. I am worth whatever I can extract from them. If you don't believe that, you don't understand the bounds of the RLA and the concepts that are present in collective bargaining. A doctor is able to say, "I'm worth X amount, and if you don't pay me that, I'll find somebody that will." We are bound by the RLA and what we, as a group, can manage to extract from the company.

Do you REALLY think an CEO is worth $20 million a year? I mean what do they do? If the CEO were fired, he can be replaced right away. If you fired all the pilots at a company you'd need 8 weeks before you could replace them, and in that period of time the company would disappear.

THAT is where we're worth something. These companies DO NOT OPERATE WITHOUT US, and that was the simple idea that John was trying to tell us with this post. Until you realize that, you'll continue to be used by whatever system you're bound by.

Don't do this job for free because you love it, because you'll realize quickly when you're in the pointy end of a jet that very little of this job is flying. It's hard to fully understand that concept until you're doing it for a living, but it is what it is. Believe me I didn't understand it until I was cruising along at 8,000' over the desert in a Chieftain, sitting on my butt thinking, "I'm not being paid to get this thing from point A to point B, anybody can do that. We're a paid insurance policy for the company to save this airframe when things start failing."

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

I have not been on these boards for two years yet, and you were an instructor at Skymates when I got here, only leaving for AM when, this spring/summer? You also just got on with a company who had their huge hiring push 3 years ago, and has slowed to nothing for the winter. Someone like Bob, who got on then, was already an FO holding a line that gave 18-20 days off in the same time you have been there.

BTW...I love you man

I started working at Skymates in February of 2006. Call it 22 months if you wanna split hairs man

BTW I love you more, we just gotta set you straight on this #### before you get up to this gig

[DenverPilot8]

Dude no one is putting a gun to your head to be a pilot

It's rediculous. Everytime someone says anything about change then an other person inevitably says the age old "well no one is forcing you to do it excuse"

If your a pilot and you don't care about how you are treated or how much you make PLEASE do not go to the airlines. Stay home and do fun flights on the weekends. Personally as I'm jumping in I'm going in with more expectations than just taking it in the A**.

Yes we could throw away the "dream" because of the negative aspects of commercial aviation. But there is nothing wrong with going in knowingly but speaking out about change.

[surreal1221]

Get beyond the dream aspect, and you'll do well.

If you're all glossy eyed cause this is your "Dream. . ." you need to wake up (You = general usage).

This is reality.

[jtrain609]

BTW I've gotta add something else here.

A few of you have mentioned Captain Bob, working 15 days a month and making $70,000 a year in his third year at the company. Bob is a hell of a great guy, and actually did a lot of leg work to get me into the company I'm at right now, but as Bob I'm sure will admit, he got in at a good time.

You've gotta realize is that you MIGHT not be so lucky. You NEVER know what's going to happen in this industry and you MIGHT end up in my position. I got in at the end of a hiring wave and only have 200 people under me (on a list of 3,200 I believe). I'm facing commuting to reserve in Newark (I live in Salt Lake City, UT, which can be a four and a half hour flight, and there are only two flights per day to Newark, depending on the day), and YOU might be in the same position.

How many days a week does your wife want to see you until she gets fed up and leaves you? How long are you willing to make min. guarantee because you're on reserve and the bypass level is 60 hours?

Don't think about the top end guys, you've really good realize that upgrades are moving north right now and you WILL be in the right seat for anywhere from 2 to 5 years. I'm personally expecting a 4 year upgrade at Express right now. Does $40,000 a year for 5 years appeal to you? Are you willing to spend 5 days a week in a 1 bedroom apartment with 12 other guys while making $1,200 a month for the next year?

Don't get me wrong, I dig my job. My QOL is better now than it was at my last job, but that doesn't mean I'll simple settle for what I'm handed. I fully expect another industry leading contract when this one comes up and I'm not interested in taking pay cuts at this point. I'd rather end up on the street to tell you the truth.

[Doug Taylor]

Man, I'm not even getting started on this thread because by the end of the post, most of you guys would think I'm in the antichrist.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

As I said, my fiance's job doesn't travel as well as mine does. She lives in Park City, and the other option is having her drive up a snow covered canyon every day to work and to be honest with you, between the high cost of gas and the chance of her getting in a car accident making that drive, living in PC is what we're faced with. Sure she could leave her job so I could move into base, but that ain't exactly fair for her is it? So I'll work on higher pay, which we need anyways, in my current career.



That person can also lawn dark an RJ pretty easily and take 50 people with them. Is that the person you want flying your wife around? We should have higher standards so not everybody can get into this career.



Ok here's where you've gotta understand something:

Pilots are worth nothing to start.

We are only worth what we can negotiate.

We're not worth what we'll be paid, because if they could an airline would not pay us ANYTHING to do this job. We would work for free, and under that payment convention we're worth nothing because that's what somebody is willing to pay us.

We don't go into contract negotiations with the public, so they don't matter. My contract, and my pay rate, is between me and my company. I am worth whatever I can extract from them. If you don't believe that, you don't understand the bounds of the RLA and the concepts that are present in collective bargaining. A doctor is able to say, "I'm worth X amount, and if you don't pay me that, I'll find somebody that will." We are bound by the RLA and what we, as a group, can manage to extract from the company.

Do you REALLY think an CEO is worth $20 million a year? I mean what do they do? If the CEO were fired, he can be replaced right away. If you fired all the pilots at a company you'd need 8 weeks before you could replace them, and in that period of time the company would disappear.

THAT is where we're worth something. These companies DO NOT OPERATE WITHOUT US, and that was the simple idea that John was trying to tell us with this post. Until you realize that, you'll continue to be used by whatever system you're bound by.

Don't do this job for free because you love it, because you'll realize quickly when you're in the pointy end of a jet that very little of this job is flying. It's hard to fully understand that concept until you're doing it for a living, but it is what it is. Believe me I didn't understand it until I was cruising along at 8,000' over the desert in a Chieftain, sitting on my butt thinking, "I'm not being paid to get this thing from point A to point B, anybody can do that. We're a paid insurance policy for the company to save this airframe when things start failing."

Jtrain609

Yes, I can point/counterpoint you through many perspectives you might have. I agree with you on some of your perspecives and disagree with a few others.

In this thread, I'm agreeing with you 100%.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Man, I'm not even getting started on this thread because by the end of the post, most of you guys would think I'm in the antichrist.

Spoken like a man who has been around awhile.

Reminds me of the young bull/old bull adage.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

It is impossible to "prove" that companies can afford a pilot's raise from our end of the spectrum.

Not true. You can start by looking at your company's balance sheet. That's public access. If I were you, I'd spend more time talking to CAs about more than upgrading. Spend more time discussing your financial future as well. One or two are incisivie about elevating their financial status. Emulate that and everyone wins.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Man, I'm not even getting started on this thread because by the end of the post, most of you guys would think I'm in the antichrist.

I'd be interested in knowing what you have to think on these issues, Doug. I figure if somebody would think you're the antichrist after hearing that, they probably already hate you

BTW You check out Serj Tankian's new solo album yet (he's the singer from System of a Down)? It's freakin' awesome, and relates to what I sent you the other day.

[Doug Taylor]

As a professional pilot, I just find it absolutely shocking that people are jumping for joy over flying a bus-full of passengers in a turbojet-powered aircraft for $70k/year.

I can see if you're flying five or six, but 50? 70? 90? 130? 300?

Perhaps I just expect more compensation from a profession where I've got jeopardy from recurrent every six months, a medical every six months and where we have a much more grave responsibility than a plumber, but we'll cheerfully accept less and PAY for the opportunity to do so.

If that's the popular sentiment out there we're absolutely hosed.

I'm simply shocked.

That's my final comment on the thread, but I'm standing by with the fire extinguisher because after all, I'm a mod!

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

As a professional pilot, I just find it absolutely shocking that people are jumping for joy over flying a bus-full of passengers in a turbojet-powered aircraft for $70k/year.

I can see if you're flying five or six, but 50? 70? 90? 130? 300?

Perhaps I just expect more compensation from a profession where I've got jeopardy from recurrent every six months, a medical every six months and where we have a much more grave responsibility than a plumber, but we'll cheerfully accept less and PAY for the opportunity to do so.

If that's the popular sentiment out there we're absolutely hosed.

I'm simply shocked.

That's my final comment on the thread, but I'm standing by with the fire extinguisher because after all, I'm a mod!

Don't worry boss, I'm right here to send this thread down in flames. I wouldn't want you to get bored on your free time and all



(But for real, go check out Serj's new album, it's awesome)

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that MFT is secretly typing the things that he believes that Mike Tyson would reply with?

Just an observation.

It's just you. Having interacted with Mike on a couple of occasions in Scottsdale, believe me when I say even the casual observer could perceive a clear intellectual distinction between Mike and me.

Typical Cowboy mentality. . .

[DenverPilot8]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Get beyond the dream aspect, and you'll do well.

If you're all glossy eyed cause this is your "Dream. . ." you need to wake up (You = general usage).

This is reality.

Believe me I'm way beyond the "dream" aspect. I spend WAAAY to much time on these boards as it is getting all the different perspectives. I'm definately going in with heavy armor up. But nonetheless it scares the piss out of me!!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

As a professional pilot, I just find it absolutely shocking that people are jumping for joy over flying a bus-full of passengers in a turbojet-powered aircraft for $70k/year.

I can see if you're flying five or six, but 50? 70? 90? 130? 300?

Are you saying CAs or FOs making 70k? If you're saying CAs, I'll agree that it's ludicrious. If you're talking FOs, well. . .now it becomes subjective given the type of aircraft being flown. 70K for a 737 or larger equates to a significant more experience. For a 737 FO, 70k start doesn't seem unreasonable.

Perhaps I just expect more compensation from a profession where I've got jeopardy from recurrent every six months, a medical every six months and where we have a much more grave responsibility than a plumber, but we'll cheerfully accept less and PAY for the opportunity to do so.

. . .and I'll agree. My point? Most don't cheerfully accept; many simply do nothing but complain. My point is always to continuously negotiate. (No, I'm not advocating union either)

Lastly,

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

That's my final comment on the thread, but I'm standing by with the fire extinguisher because after all, I'm a mod!

I don't see you as a mod. You're a degreed, experienced FO for a major airline. You've progressed through the professional aviation ladder with success and competence. I see your pay comparable to a seasoned midlevel 737 CA or more.

For FOs in an RJ one month after training? Significantly less money. Hell no, 19k is ridiculous. Mid 25k to 28k to start perhaps. . . even with someone with 250/25TT having successfully completed training. . .which is where it has gone so far.

. . .and I'd negotiate for that amount as well. . .who else move on once I gained the experience.

Short term sacrifice for long term gain.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

You're saying, "Don't complain about pay, you knew what you were getting into."

I say, "Complain about pay, work rules, everything. I knew what I was getting into, and I intend on changing things. If we don't try to make things better, management WILL work to make things worse."

If you don't understand that very basic tenant about negotiating a higher pay rate under the rules that we're stuck with, then you'll never get a better contract. Our job, with the way this system is structured (that system being collecting bargaining), is to try to extract as much money as we can from management. Management's job is to get us to work for as little as possible.

What have you done during your "crusade" for higher pay, than argue on an internet message board? If you are seriously involved with a union and are actually putting in the leg work for a change of the tide, then good for you. Otherwise, you are in no position to complain. The pay is clearly posted on various aviation websites and you accepted the position.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I don't see you as a mod. You're a degreed, experienced FO for a major airline. You've progressed through the professional aviation ladder with success and competence. I see your pay comparable to a seasoned midlevel 737 CA or more.

For FOs in an RJ one month after training? Significantly less money. Hell no, 19k is ridiculous. Mid 25k to 28k to start perhaps. . . even with someone with 250/25TT having successfully completed training. . .which is where it has gone so far.

. . .and I'd negotiate for that amount as well. . .who else move on once I gained the experience.

Short term sacrifice for long term gain.

mod=moderator, on the site!

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

What have you done during your "crusade" for higher pay, than argue on an internet message board? If you are seriously involved with a union and are actually putting in the leg work for a change of the tide, then good for you. Otherwise, you are in no position to complain. The pay is clearly posted on various aviation websites and you accepted the position.

You know that there's a fairly large regional airline where I live, right? I'm avoiding the place as long as I can because they're non union and I think the pay is too low. I'm pulling my hair out right now looking at some really horrible phase 2 bid packets for my base wondering why I'm not driving to work, but I don't want to be in a position where I have to accept substandard pay and lose my union protection. If it comes to that because I end up on the street, so be it, but at this point I'll keep doing this crappy commute, hope I can get a base transfer here in the next 12 months and then when I can I fully intend on doing whatever I can once I'm able to join union committees, but during my first year there's little I can do.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

What have you done during your "crusade" for higher pay, than argue on an internet message board? If you are seriously involved with a union and are actually putting in the leg work for a change of the tide, then good for you. Otherwise, you are in no position to complain. The pay is clearly posted on various aviation websites and you accepted the position.

And what are you doing? Besides questioning a professional pilot's ambition to improve the profession?

Just saying things for the sake of saying them and drawing attention?

Are you one of these "dreamer" pilots?

Moreover, it's a clear acknowledgment that you're not reading what John is writing. He is not complaining, he is being a realist.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

And what are you doing? Besides questioning a professional pilot's ambition to improve the profession?

I am forgoing the airlines for now. I refuse to fly a jet (PIC or SIC) for 19k a year. Hell, I refuse to fly a 172 for that much money. You have choices, and you aren't forced to fly for an airline. If Eagle would bump their pay to something I see as livable, I would be all over them. Instead, they just keep dropping their minimums to get people with shiny jet/prop syndrome.

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Are you one of these "dreamer" pilots?

Not sure what you mean by being a "dreamer" pilot. I have standards though, and 19k isn't one of them. If it was, I wouldn't have spent money on flight training and college.

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Moreover, it's a clear acknowledgment that you're not reading what John is writing. He is not complaining, he is being a realist.

He is feeding the problem, though. He took the crappy pay. He says he plans on getting involved in the union, and that is awesome. He says he would rather be on the street than go to a non-union. That is great, too. I wasn't calling him out, just wondering what he planned on doing about it, besides complaining. It was an honest question, and he answered it directly.

[DenverPilot8]

he's right though. I mean if you lined up next to everyone else that was bent over then you shouldn't complain about management pulling down its Armani pants and screwing you in the rear.

Really though there isn't really anything wrong with having realistic expectations going in and then doing something to change things for the better. Just from the things I have learned on this sight alone I know I will be much wiser in dealing with the negatives of this industry. I won't like it but I will at least expect it. But on the other hand I will probably not just take it either.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

I am forgoing the airlines for now. I refuse to fly a jet (PIC or SIC) for 19k a year. Hell, I refuse to fly a 172 for that much money. You have choices, and you aren't forced to fly for an airline. If Eagle would bump their pay to something I see as livable, I would be all over them. Instead, they just keep dropping their minimums to get people with shiny jet/prop syndrome.



Not sure what you mean by being a "dreamer" pilot. I have standards though, and 19k isn't one of them. If it was, I wouldn't have spent money on flight training and college.



He is feeding the problem, though. He took the crappy pay. He says he plans on getting involved in the union, and that is awesome. He says he would rather be on the street than go to a non-union. That is great, too. I wasn't calling him out, just wondering what he planned on doing about it, besides complaining. It was an honest question, and he answered it directly.

So what can YOU do about MY pay rate? Nothing. You don't negotiate with my company for my pay rate, I DO. Until YOU are on the inside with a vote that counts, you can do NOTHING for my company.