Stating the obviously unbovious

[jtrain609]

All good points Tim, but what you fail to realize is that the average lawyer out of a fourth tier law school such as Cooley pops out making an average of $120,000 a year, where the chances of a pilot making it to mainline and making that much money are MUCH smaller.

A lot of folks say, "Hey, get your 1,000 TPIC and Southwest will come banging down your door! There's a pilot shortage here guys!" But what most people fail to realize is that the number of guys that will make it to mainline is decidedly small, and there's a considerable amount of risk for the amount of time, money and effort put into this career.

Even once you're at a mainline do you think it's all roses? Do you want to move to Newark, or do you want to commute to reserve for 10 years because you got in at the end of a hiring wave at Continental, because you might be faced with that choice IF you make it there.

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

All good points Tim, but what you fail to realize is that the average lawyer out of a fourth tier law school such as Cooley pops out making an average of $120,000 a year, where the chances of a pilot making it to mainline and making that much money are MUCH smaller.

A lot of folks say, "Hey, get your 1,000 TPIC and Southwest will come banging down your door! There's a pilot shortage here guys!" But what most people fail to realize is that the number of guys that will make it to mainline is decidedly small, and there's a considerable amount of risk for the amount of time, money and effort put into this career.

Even once you're at a mainline do you think it's all roses? Do you want to move to Newark, or do you want to commute to reserve for 10 years because you got in at the end of a hiring wave at Continental, because you might be faced with that choice IF you make it there.

Agreed, Please dont think I'm in anyway for low pay. Although I'm not there YET I'm doing my best to study the "way of the airline pilot" Since that is what I want to do when I grow up (haha im 39). To think about an fo making 20k and living out of a suitcase, and the expenses involved with a travelling job, sometimes I wonder if I must be nuts to even consider doing this.
I'm currently a union member (non aviation) We are in contract negotiations right now. My hope is that better negotations in the future will bring back to the airline industry what it has lost.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

Agreed, Please dont think I'm in anyway for low pay. Although I'm not there YET I'm doing my best to study the "way of the airline pilot" Since that is what I want to do when I grow up (haha im 39). To think about an fo making 20k and living out of a suitcase, and the expenses involved with a travelling job, sometimes I wonder if I must be nuts to even consider doing this.
I'm currently a union member (non aviation) We are in contract negotiations right now. My hope is that better negotations in the future will bring back to the airline industry what it has lost.

Honestly man? I think we sell ourselves short. We say, "If somebody has $50,000 and 90 days ANYBODY can be an airline pilot!" But I haven't been out of the training department long, and when I was working as a trainer at an air carrier the washout rate was around 50%. Not everybody can do this, but for those of us that can I think it comes fairly easily and we throw around phrases like the one used above.

Truth be told, while what we do is easy to us, MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD CAN'T DO IT. We are, for the most part, smarter than the average person, better educated than the average person and more driven than the average person, but we don't want to come off as arrogant so we dumb down how complicated it is what we do. I mean think about it, what's our reaction when we see a pilot bragging about how hard is job is?

"TOOL! That freakin' ###### bag gives us all a bad name! This ain't that hard..."

I know it because I've said it myself, but I also understand after watching others try to do something that I do with seeming ease that it's not as easy as we think. We sell ourselves short, and really have nobody to blame but ourselves.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

All good points Tim, but what you fail to realize is that the average lawyer out of a fourth tier law school such as Cooley pops out making an average of $120,000 a year, where the chances of a pilot making it to mainline and making that much money are MUCH smaller.

That's like saying all pilots make $200,000 and work 10 days a month. Yes, the starting salary for new associates at most top tier firms in large cities is now north of $120,000. But no one is getting those jobs right out of a fourth tier law school unless they are at the tippy top of their class or they know someone (or more likely both). Most of those jobs are going to former judicial law clerks and top 10% students out of top 20 law schools.

The majority of law school graduates are earning well below $100,000, and apparently 25% or so never work as lawyers.

Besides, being a big-firm associate BLOWS.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

That's like saying all pilots make $200,000 and work 10 days a month. Yes, the starting salary for new associates at most top tier firms in large cities is now north of $120,000. But no one is getting those jobs right out of a fourth tier law school unless they are at the tippy top of their class or they know someone (or more likely both). Most of those jobs are going to former judicial law clerks and top 10% students out of top 20 law schools.

The majority of law school graduates are earning well below $100,000, and apparently 25% or so never work as lawyers.

Besides, being a big-firm associate BLOWS.

That might be true, but in ending my second year of flying professionally I'm home 8 days a month and make $19,000 a year.

Find me a lawyer, doctor or any other professional that puts 2 years into their career after finishing training that is in that situation. I'm talking about out of law school and into the world. We make excuses for it as being ok by saying we're paying our dues or some BS like that, but the truth is that it's unacceptable, but we find that it's ok beacuse we're "living a childhood dream."

I dig my job a lot, but I'm not gonna sugercoat it either! There's not much else I want to do, but it ain't all roses!

(I don't mean to sound too negative, but I'm sitting in Lubbock, TX on a 23 overnight and don't have much else to do )

[dakovich]

Originally Posted by I_Money

A 4 hour flight from Boston to LA revenue - $92,000

A 4 hour baseball game at Fenway - $15,800,000

70,000 fans at Fenway?

250 people on that flight?

70,000/250=280

280 x 92000= $25,760,000


of course yer not going to have 280 LAX-BOS flights a day....buuuut Fenway has how many games a year total? and how many BOS-LAX flights are there in a year total?

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

That might be true, but in ending my second year of flying professionally I'm home 8 days a month and make $19,000 a year.

Find me a lawyer, doctor or any other professional that puts 2 years into their career after finishing training that is in that situation. I'm talking about out of law school and into the world. We make excuses for it as being ok by saying we're paying our dues or some BS like that, but the truth is that it's unacceptable, but we find that it's ok beacuse we're "living a childhood dream."

I dig my job a lot, but I'm not gonna sugercoat it either! There's not much else I want to do, but it ain't all roses!

(I don't mean to sound too negative, but I'm sitting in Lubbock, TX on a 23 overnight and don't have much else to do )

I don't think you sound negative. You have some really good points. Entry level pay does need to improve at the regional level. However, remember that you made a job change, which is part of the reason for your salary being $19K, two years into it. If you had been at your current company for the two years, you'd probably be making double that salary, or more. (not being negative about that, as I'm sure you wouldn't trade your time, and experience with your other company)

As far as other careers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They do make good money, albiet, lawyers do not all make six figures, but those careers also have much higher entry level requirements. That is one of the areas, where pilots sell themselves short. To become a doctor, one must go through 10 years of schooling, work very long, stressful hours, and are in an average of $150-200K of debt, upon graduating. Lawyers must also go through 6+ years of schooling, are often in a lot of debt, from law school, and must pass a bar exam. often times, pay isn't on the high end, for starting lawyers.

And, although not everybody can do it, as you pointed out, theoretically, someone can write a check for $50K, and be a pilot a few months later. And, with hiring like it is, they can get hired with 300TT, and no college degree. This is one of the places, where things need to change.

I think Minnesota_Flyer made a good point. There is a misconception that all pilots make $300K and work 10 days per month. There also seems to be a misconception, within aviation, that outside of aviation, pay is much better. All one has to do, is look at income statistics, and they will see that is not true. Less than 6% of Americans make six figures, and those six figures jobs aren't any easier to get, than that pilot trying to get on with UPS, FedEx, SWA, etc.

Again, I am not sticking up for the pay, and I will be one of the first in line to fight for better contracts. The way I see it, if my sole purpose for becoming an airline pilot, is to make things better for those who come behind me, than I have done my job. And, FWIW, I believe we will see imrpoved contracts, and pay, over the coming years, at the majors, and regionals, as contracts become ammendable. I think part of the problem is educating the younger pilots. I am 23, and don't fly for the airlines, yet, and I feel like I know more about the issues than those, my age, currently sitting in the right seat, or for that matter, the left seat.

[pilot602]

And herein lies part of my point.

Pilots arguing with pilots that we are worth less than we are.


A plumber, an electrician, a lawyer, etc. all hold their licesnses in much higher regard than we do.

Pilots are not a dime a dozen. At best there is a two-to-one ratio of "active qualified" piltos for every 121 job. That's not counting 135 or 91 jobs. And, that is not an over suply. Law schools have been graduating roughly 12 law students every year for the last 10-15 years for every one law job and the median (not average) starting pay for a lawyer is $160,000 per year.

Another way to look at our numbers is less than one-half of one-percent of the US population holds a student pilot certificate or better. There are some 650-700,000 practicing doctors in the us and a combined total of roughly 300,000 commercial and ATP rated pilots that currently hold active medicals.

Again, if a given pilot group all decided not to renew their medicals the airline for which they work would be flat out screwed.




Instead of arguing about why we should be happy at what we make maybe we should act more like plumbers and sells our certificates and medicals for a proper price.


Again, just something to think about.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

I don't think you sound negative. You have some really good points. Entry level pay does need to improve at the regional level. However, remember that you made a job change, which is part of the reason for your salary being $19K, two years into it. If you had been at your current company for the two years, you'd probably be making double that salary, or more. (not being negative about that, as I'm sure you wouldn't trade your time, and experience with your other company)

As far as other careers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They do make good money, albiet, lawyers do not all make six figures, but those careers also have much higher entry level requirements. That is one of the areas, where pilots sell themselves short. To become a doctor, one must go through 10 years of schooling, work very long, stressful hours, and are in an average of $150-200K of debt, upon graduating. Lawyers must also go through 6+ years of schooling, are often in a lot of debt, from law school, and must pass a bar exam. often times, pay isn't on the high end, for starting lawyers.

And, although not everybody can do it, as you pointed out, theoretically, someone can write a check for $50K, and be a pilot a few months later. And, with hiring like it is, they can get hired with 300TT, and no college degree. This is one of the places, where things need to change.

I think Minnesota_Flyer made a good point. There is a misconception that all pilots make $300K and work 10 days per month. There also seems to be a misconception, within aviation, that outside of aviation, pay is much better. All one has to do, is look at income statistics, and they will see that is not true. Less than 6% of Americans make six figures, and those six figures jobs aren't any easier to get, than that pilot trying to get on with UPS, FedEx, SWA, etc.

Again, I am not sticking up for the pay, and I will be one of the first in line to fight for better contracts. The way I see it, if my sole purpose for becoming an airline pilot, is to make things better for those who come behind me, than I have done my job. And, FWIW, I believe we will see imrpoved contracts, and pay, over the coming years, at the majors, and regionals, as contracts become ammendable. I think part of the problem is educating the younger pilots. I am 23, and don't fly for the airlines, yet, and I feel like I know more about the issues than those, my age, currently sitting in the right seat, or for that matter, the left seat.

Good points, and I actually took a pay CUT to come where I am now, in addition to giving up loads of turbine PIC and the chance to fly some awesome aircraft (the Beech 99 and Metroliner), but I'm off more days per month and I'd say my QOL is better. Further it was (in part) an investment. I'll make as much, if not more than a Metro captain at my previous company second year here than I would if I had stuck around, and captain pay isn't even equivocal.

Oddly enough, I passed up an interview at my current company a little over a year ago to work at Amflight. It was a place that I had wanted to go to for a long time, and it was kind of frustrating when it didn't work out the way I had hoped.

Truth be told, though, if things had happened in a different manner I'm well aware I wouldn't have moved to LA (I would have moved back to Michigan or maybe Chicago) and I wouldn't be engaged to the girl that I'm engaged to right now. I wouldn't give up my experiences for anything, because the training at my last company was invaluable to me and has put me in a very good place now.

That all being said, I still think the pay is laughable at best and the entry level for flying 50 people around at 500 knots and 37,000 feet should be much higher than it is. I've thought that for years, though, and plan to get on a union committee to help change that when I can

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Law schools have been graduating roughly 12 law students every year for the last 10-15 years for every one law job and the median (not average) starting pay for a lawyer is $160,000 per year.

I don't mean to pull this off on a tangent -- I agree with your underlying point, but just as I would correct somone who believes all pilots earn $200k, I must point out that your statistics on the legal profession aren't even slightly accurate. $160,000 is the starting pay for lawyers only at the largest firms in NY -- the "top" of the profession. The median starting pay for first-year attorneys at all large firms (251+ lawyers) is $130,000; for first-year lawyers at small firms (2-5), the median starting salary is $68,000. Government lawyers (clerks, prosecutors, public defenders) median is below $50,000. (Source: NALP).

I can't find a definitive source to rebut your other figure, but since law schools, even in the lowest tiers, report placing 75% or better of their graduates in legal jobs, your number can't possibly be right. (Besides, there is a signficant difference among law school graduates between the top and the bottom. Most law graduates, quite frankly, don't have what it takes for a big firm practice.)

[GalaxyIFE]

Originally Posted by pilot602

And herein lies part of my point.

Pilots arguing with pilots that we are worth less than we are.


A plumber, an electrician, a lawyer, etc. all hold their licesnses in much higher regard than we do.

Pilots are not a dime a dozen. At best there is a two-to-one ratio of "active qualified" piltos for every 121 job. That's not counting 135 or 91 jobs. And, that is not an over suply. Law schools have been graduating roughly 12 law students every year for the last 10-15 years for every one law job and the median (not average) starting pay for a lawyer is $160,000 per year.

Another way to look at our numbers is less than one-half of one-percent of the US population holds a student pilot certificate or better. There are some 650-700,000 practicing doctors in the us and a combined total of roughly 300,000 commercial and ATP rated pilots that currently hold active medicals.

Again, if a given pilot group all decided not to renew their medicals the airline for which they work would be flat out screwed.




Instead of arguing about why we should be happy at what we make maybe we should act more like plumbers and sells our certificates and medicals for a proper price.


Again, just something to think about.

Where does that figure come from? From looking at the BLS website, the average STARTING salary (9 months after graduation) is 55K a year and the median for ALL attorneys is 94K. That isn't that great considering you will have to give a minimum of 6 years (most likely 7) post high-school. Here is my thought...doctors don't become doctors for the money (and after all the cost associated with it and the inital investment of school, is it really worth the money?) most lawyers (OK, some) don't do it for the money, and well, you shouldn't fly for the money. I am not going to say that 19K a year is fair, because it isn't. 65K a year as a 5 year CA with 16 days off...that is nothing to sneeze at and knowing what it is, I would accept that. I also accept that the 1st year pay is going to suck...if it changes, that's great, but I don't EXPECT it. Hell, you can't expect anything in the job but uncertainty. I know that ALPA is "takin' it back", but again, this isn't a career one should get into to get rich. OK, let the flaming begin...

[jtrain609]

$65,000 a year is chump change in this country. My Dad made that as a psychologist working for the state of Michigan living in a rural town, and as far as I'm concerned was completely ripped off.

Heck at $65,000 a year I couldn't buy a condo in Park City, where my fiance's job is.

This is America, we should demand better than this crap that we're fed. We're told that it's acceptable and we say, "Huh, well somebody said it's good enough so it must be." We're turning into a country of pansies if we think that $65,000 a year is acceptable compensation for a job that puts hundreds of people's of lives in your hands every day.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

...and the entry level for flying 50 people around at 500 knots and 37,000 feet...

500 knots???

[jtrain609]

Ok, lately it's more like 330 aross the country when we're headed west bound, but I think we can true 450 on a good day!

Honestly I've never paid attention to what our true airspeed is, I'm usually more concerned with mach at that height, Mr.Slowtation

(Or did you get a new ride?)

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

$65,000 a year is chump change in this country.

It sure isn't if you buy a new car every few years, eat out 24/7, and don't look for deals.

$65,000 goes a long way still, especially as a pilot where you can live almost anywhere you want.

I think there are advantages to being an airline pilot that you are ignoring for the sake of discussion.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

It sure is if you buy a new car every few years, eat out 24/7, and don't look for deals.

$65,000 goes a long way still, especially as a pilot where you can live almost anywhere you want.

I think there are advantages to being an airline pilot that you are ignoring for the sake of discussion.

No, they don't apply to this discussion. We're talking about pay, not other benefits that you can't put a price on.

Call me greedy, but my understanding of capitalism is that you take what you can and give nothing back, knowing that everybody else is going to attempt to do the same. Settling isn't an option in this kind of an economy and will only lead to you getting hosed in the end when you're not ready to stand up for what you think you should be paid.

If you think $65,000 a year is great, why aren't you at Skybus yet? You could make good money for living in Columbus, cheer for Ohio State and get paid what you believe to be a fair wage. But I imagine you've got some pretty compelling reasons for not going that route yet eh?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

No, they don't apply to this discussion. We're talking about pay, not other benefits that you can't put a price on.

Oh OK so it's only about the money for you. I see. Why did you become a pilot then? Why not a doctor, a lawyer, or [insert job where you quote high pay]?

You can't put a price on living where you want? I can. It could mean the difference between a 3/2 1500 sq. ft. home that costs $500,000 vs. $130,000. It could mean the difference between driving to work every day and hating rush hour traffic or using a golf cart as your primary transportation.

Call me greedy, but my understanding of capitalism is that you take what you can and give nothing back, knowing that everybody else is going to attempt to do the same. Settling isn't an option in this kind of an economy and will only lead to you getting hosed in the end when you're not ready to stand up for what you think you should be paid.

Then you did the wrong thing going to ExpressJet. You need to make a move toward a corporate job where you can directly negotiate your pay.

If you think $65,000 a year is great, why aren't you at Skybus yet?

I didn't say it was great. I said it still goes a long way. I'm not at Skybus 1) because I'll make more money here as an FO than I would there as an FO and more as a CA here than as a CA there 2) I can't stand the midwest and hope I never have to move there 3) because they are a new startup and I think they don't have a chance and 4) because I drink too much soda and I refuse to spend my per diem buying the stuff while at work!!

[Rocketman99]

But it wont go a long way if you want to live like your average person desires. Hell if I ate ramen every day and took the bus to and from LGA I could save ridiculous amounts of money on food and gas and insurance and other expenses. What I would end up with is a miserable life and probable heart attack by 50. You really can't live anywhere you want in some degree of comfort if all you have is 65K. Not gonna happen.

And traditionally the job of airline pilot IS high paying. It's been cut down but we're trying to get it back.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

...I'm usually more concerned with mach at that height, Mr.Slowtation

(Or did you get a new ride?)

See avatar. New type rating about a month ago - Lear 40/45.

Mach 0.81, max FL510. May not be the fastest in the sky, but they'll do.

[mojo6911]

19k/year is pathetic for an airline pilot, and the airlines should be ashamed of themselves for that. I can't blame them though. If they can find people willing to work for that amount of pay, it really isn't their fault. If you are doing it, though, you are contributing to the problem. You sold yourself short.

The reason there is a "shortage" of pilots right now is because of the pay they are offering. If Eagle bumped their pay up, I would be all over them. Instead, I am just going to continue instructing, get my ATP in a couple of months, and explore my options from there.

[GalaxyIFE]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

$65,000 a year is chump change in this country. My Dad made that as a psychologist working for the state of Michigan living in a rural town, and as far as I'm concerned was completely ripped off.

Heck at $65,000 a year I couldn't buy a condo in Park City, where my fiance's job is.

This is America, we should demand better than this crap that we're fed. We're told that it's acceptable and we say, "Huh, well somebody said it's good enough so it must be." We're turning into a country of pansies if we think that $65,000 a year is acceptable compensation for a job that puts hundreds of people's of lives in your hands every day.

Well, I make around 65K a year, and with that “chump change” I have a 2500 square foot house, an ’06 model year truck that is paid for, a substantial amount in savings and hell even a 50” plasma TV. I tend to think that I am LIVING the American dream. I think it is all about living within your means. If you can’t live comfortably for 65K a year then perhaps you need to sit down with a financial counselor; but to each their own. For me, 65K is a fair wage and I too am responsible for hundreds of lives, but so are city bus drivers. And man, I wouldn’t pay 200K for a condo ANYWHERE…that is just wrong.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by I_Money

A 4 hour flight from Boston to LA revenue - $92,000

A 4 hour baseball game at Fenway - $15,800,000

Your Honor, the defense rests!!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Wing_96

I'm in the real world. Let's talk.

I'm not saying that there can be a direct comparison between athletes and pilots because that's not possible. So, you are right. It would be ludicrous to make that comparison. Rather, I am suggesting that there are some things that we as pilots could do to improve our future, and not stabbing each other in the back would probably be a good start.

Somebody help me please. I see a lot of comparisons with occupations totally NOT significant to those of the aviation industry.

So, riddle me this. Before 9/11 whenever you personally perceive the aviation industry to be at it's peak, comparatively speaking, what were first officers making in first year incomes relative to their captain counterparts? More significantly, what were first officer flight time/total time, or experience before they started flying for an airline? I personally can't remember in the past that "six/eight month wonders" were transitioning to jets. Also help me here. . . are foreign pilots with less than 1000 hrs TT flying overseas in 737s?

Focus more with apples to apples analogies past and present for me to understand a salary perspective.

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

$65,000 a year is chump change in this country.

Sorry John gotta disagree. $19k is certainly chump change. $65K is very livable. Sorry you cannot afford a condo in the playground of the rich, but $65k IS livable. I will make around $75k this year, Well over 100 with my wife's salary added in. We have a beautiful 6 year old home, all the bells and whistles, in ground pool with a pretty waterfall etc..... Even with me shelling out $3-4K per mo