College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!)

Doug Taylor · October 20th, 2003, 16:58

What do you think?

AirborneMedic_ANGa10 · October 20th, 2003, 17:05

The TSA ought to have a division that does exactly what that guy did. The only way to test security is to attempt to breach it, randomly and often. That young man should be their first new hire.

EatSleepFly · October 20th, 2003, 17:23

I think he should be commended. He exposed the fact that the TSA is not necessarily more effective than security was before, and only there to make the public feel more comfortable. Ballsy move, anyways.

Doug Taylor · October 20th, 2003, 17:31

Personally, I don't agree with what he did at all.

HOWEVER, since he's done it, I think it's all too telling of the 'powers that be' that think that all is well because he's probably going behind bars.

I think the problem that he pointed out is that there is a still a long way to go, on many levels, to make security more effective.

Maybe one day, we'll finally schedule a symposium for everyone in the industry (at least reps from each group) to sit down and discuss what actually needs to be done to make airline security effective.

hammer · October 20th, 2003, 17:40

Why do I think he's a frequent poster on a.net?

vipermcg · October 20th, 2003, 17:52

I'm glad that he exposed the problems with the TSA, but I do not think what he did was write. The job of testing the system should belong to government officials, and not to a college kid. If this kid didn't go to jail, any person found with a weapon on board a plane could say they were "testing the system." Bottom line, he broke the law and he should pay for it.

pilot602 · October 20th, 2003, 18:04

The job of "testing the government" falls squarely in the lap of those who give it its power - i.e. us.

Was there abetter way to do it? Maybe.

Does the fact that we are responsible for keeping an eye on our own government get him off the hook for "breaking" the law? Nope.

TallFlyer · October 20th, 2003, 18:22

While I can understand the volume of tips that the TSA might get is probably huge, I do think it's laughable that it took someone 5 weeks to discover his staff of stuff after he sent an email with the exact location on whatever plane that stuff was.

This is what I find funny: a quote from a TSA admin person:

"Amateur testing of our systems do not show us in any way our flaws,'' McHale said. "We know where the vulnerabilities, are and we are testing them... This does not help.''

Hmm, you know your vulnerabilities? I would call that a large load of horse manure myself. If a rank amatuer, a pacifist even, can get through TSA security, what about professionals? And I think AirborneMedic is absolutely right. SOMEONE in out government should be regularly testing TSA and other airport security measures. Something like the first scene of Hackers.

Anyways, I doth ramble to much....

E_Dawg · October 20th, 2003, 18:48

I dunno if it's done, but they need to do these tests internally and build on the findings.

At least before this incident, the TSA provided the perception of security to the general public. Now, even that one positive aspect of the TSA is gone because they continue to publicly fail do to do what they were designed to do.

ready2fly · October 20th, 2003, 19:01

I kind of dug it.

I think he exposed a weakness. Was it his "job" to do so? Nope. Not technically... and he'll be punished accordingly.

But, he made a national mockery of the TSA.

My only concern is that things will "tighten up" and make things harder on the folks the TSA are already harassing - i.e., the crew, the rampers, old ladies... etc.

pilot602 · October 20th, 2003, 20:46

I dunno ... I don't think it was the kid who embarassed the TSA. I think they did that all by themsemselves.

Mavmb · October 20th, 2003, 23:54

Well the kid is going to be in big trouble for what he did. Regardless, his actions do prove a point at what a joke our TSA is. TSA is just a bunch of minimum wage, uneducated employees, many of whom probably barely have high school diplomas or GEDs.

Well whatever they're background, their pay is piss poor and the low pay encourages them to be lazy. I'm sure they're thinking, "check for terrorists, I don't get paid enough to do this!" As a result, who do we see getting searched at the airport gates? Families and little old ladies. It's never people that may pose a threat that get checked, it's just the people who look cooperative that get stopped at the gates.

Doug Taylor · October 21st, 2003, 00:03

Actually, they make pretty good money, about $40,000/year starting. <- <- at least that's what I've heard.

However, I think the #1 head honcho hasn't a clue what to do beyond spend 100% of his appropriated budget.

MrSkyKingRon · October 21st, 2003, 00:15

My first initial reaction was, "great, if things were not bad enough, this is all we need from some bonehead kid, giving the government and TSA more reason to inflict us with more useless rules and reg's!!" Things like taking off your shoes and confiscating nail clippers and all the other stupid security changes at our GA airports. Plus the non-flying general public already has a scewed-up and uninformed enough oppinion of the GA and commercial world without something like this only making matters worse. My .02. I'm still angry at him.

Yes, and it's so true that the TSA has a long way to go. I wish they would go away, what a pain in the ass. But, perhaps that one catch of an actual terrorist act would make it worthwhile, but what are the odds that they'll actually pull that off? I'm not holding my breath.

Tired · October 21st, 2003, 00:20

[ QUOTE ]
Well whatever they're background, their pay is piss poor and the low pay encourages them to be lazy. I'm sure they're thinking, "check for terrorists, I don't get paid enough to do this!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't call being paid $30,000-$40,000 for unskilled labor underpaid. Moreover, I don't see how being underpaid always leads to poor job performance. What about firefighters, police officers, teachers, and flight instructors? Most start at the same money or less as a TSA employee, however most do a pretty good job in my opinion. Mav, do say, "teach landings today, I don't get paid enought to do this!"

montanapilot · October 21st, 2003, 00:47

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, lucky we have mav here to spout off a bunch of crap that isn't even true

[/ QUOTE ]

the Pan-Am personal insult slugfest ought to stay in the Pan-Am forum and not leak to the general topics.

Doug Taylor · October 21st, 2003, 01:14

I love it when you guys automoderate!

Bryan · October 21st, 2003, 08:06

I think it is impossible to find every possible weapon. A box knife may get through more often then not. Hopefully they are better at catching "real" knifes and guns and I would assume they are.

After 9/11, people are going to react different too. If somebody stands up waving a box knife and screaming "allah is great, your all gonna die" there is going to be a serious a$$ kicking going on. We are not going to sit and take it anymore.

Anyway, through the guy in jail.

naunga · October 21st, 2003, 08:32

That is absolutely correct!! And I'm glad to see that there are people in this country who still understand that WE are in charge of the government, not the other way around.

People forget that. They need to be reminded often.

Oh, and did you guys happen to see the deputy chief of the TSA on NBC Nightly News last night?

He said something to the effect of, "We don't expect to catch 100% of threats at the checkpoint. That why we have multiple layers of security."

That was a load of #####. If they had multiple layers of security at some point the guy would've been caught. I mean the guy even sent emails to the TSA.

If you didn't believe the TSA was simply window dressing before, I hope you do now.

Naunga

pilot602 · October 21st, 2003, 10:28

[ QUOTE ]
After 9/11, people are going to react different too. If somebody stands up waving a box knife and screaming "allah is great, your all gonna die" there is going to be a serious a$$ kicking going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't bet on that.

The weeks and months following 9/11? Sure. But now that we're two years removed from the event life has pretty much gone back to normal - i.e. people are worried about their mortgages, losing their jobs, their kids latest report card, etc. I have a sneaking feeling that if someone were to stand up on an aircraft today fewer people would do something about it than we would hope.

Never under estimate the sheepishness of the general population.

davetheflyer · October 21st, 2003, 10:43

I voted for overhaul TSA and punish him accordingly. Hopefully, his punishment will take into account that his goal was to enhance security, but if it needs to be strict enough to discourage further copycat security testers.

naunga · October 21st, 2003, 10:50

Check this out:

Click Here.

tonyw · October 21st, 2003, 10:52

[ QUOTE ]
I have a sneaking feeling that if someone were to stand up on an aircraft today fewer people would do something about it than we would hope.

Never under estimate the sheepishness of the general population.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunna, man. If you have three options, and two of them result in you getting killed, what are you going to do? Option one is to sit there and do nothing. Result? You're dead. Option two is to fight the hijacker and get killed in the fight. Result? You're dead.

Option three is to kick the living daylights out of the hijacker and subdue him.

Result? You live.

So if there is only one way to ensure that you live, I think that self preservation will kick in and people will subdue the hijacker.

By the way, getting back to the subject here, I think that the TSA needs to be investigated and they need to figure out just how to make it actually work. Yes, there is a need to make sure that aviation is secure. But is the TSA's approach the best way to do it? That's a question that needs to be asked and I don't think it is.

But they also need to punish the kid who, after all is said and done, broke the law.

pilot602 · October 21st, 2003, 11:08

[ QUOTE ]
I dunna, man. If you have three options, and two of them result in you getting killed, what are you going to do? Option one is to sit there and do nothing. Result? You're dead. Option two is to fight the hijacker and get killed in the fight. Result? You're dead.
Option three is to kick the living daylights out of the hijacker and subdue him.
Result? You live.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's one thing to say folks, who at this point are nothing more than namless, faceless "people" will stand up and fight. It's one thing to assume that these people are courageous and strong and would sacrifice themselves for others.

Its another matter entirely when those folks have names put to them, faces applied to them and placed in a situation where no matter what they do they stand a very good chance at dying. In that situation I fear most people will sit idly by and watch their fate unfold infront of them.

Most folks don't think "if I'm going to die, I'm going out fighting." Most folks go into shock, fear, rationalization etc.

I see it in every person I've ever trained in martial arts. Its a different mindest, one that needs to be cultivated and one that even with years of training is still hard to will into acting upon. Because when "it" really happens no one knows what theyr'e really going to do.

I just don't think as many people will stand up and fight as we - the general public - would like to think.

kellwolf · October 21st, 2003, 11:34

[ QUOTE ]
He said something to the effect of, "We don't expect to catch 100% of threats at the checkpoint. That why we have multiple layers of security."

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Where is the other layer? At MCO, there is the security chekpoint and the big machines to x-ray checked baggage. Other than that, TSA is not present. When driving through security checkpoints on airport property, they are staffed by AIRPORT security, not TSA. When this fiasco first started, they had TSA at the gates to screen selectees. If you didn't know what was going on, it LOOKED like they were pulling random people. Now the selectees have their own line at the checkpoint.

Funny story though. An Ops agent used to get really irritated at passengers who did not have their boarding pass or photo ID ready when he needed to check them to board the plane. He would send them over to TSA for 'extra screening.'

View Poll Results: Your thoughts on the student who foiled security
Criminal, throw him in jail and throw away the key	4	4.04%
Did us all a favor by showing the TSA actually stands for "Thousdands Standing Around"	60	60.61%
Throw him in jail AND investigate the TSA	29	29.29%
Way too big a story than it ought to be	6	6.06%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

October 20th, 2003, 17:05	#2
AirborneMedic_ANGa10 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 213	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) The TSA ought to have a division that does exactly what that guy did. The only way to test security is to attempt to breach it, randomly and often. That young man should be their first new hire.

October 20th, 2003, 17:23	#3
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I think he should be commended. He exposed the fact that the TSA is not necessarily more effective than security was before, and only there to make the public feel more comfortable. Ballsy move, anyways.

October 20th, 2003, 17:31	#4
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) Personally, I don't agree with what he did at all. HOWEVER, since he's done it, I think it's all too telling of the 'powers that be' that think that all is well because he's probably going behind bars. I think the problem that he pointed out is that there is a still a long way to go, on many levels, to make security more effective. Maybe one day, we'll finally schedule a symposium for everyone in the industry (at least reps from each group) to sit down and discuss what actually needs to be done to make airline security effective.

October 20th, 2003, 17:40	#5
hammer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 200	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) Why do I think he's a frequent poster on a.net?

October 20th, 2003, 16:58	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) What do you think?

October 20th, 2003, 17:52	#6
vipermcg Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: New York/ West Lafayette, IN Posts: 393	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I'm glad that he exposed the problems with the TSA, but I do not think what he did was write. The job of testing the system should belong to government officials, and not to a college kid. If this kid didn't go to jail, any person found with a weapon on board a plane could say they were "testing the system." Bottom line, he broke the law and he should pay for it.

October 20th, 2003, 18:04	#7
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) The job of "testing the government" falls squarely in the lap of those who give it its power - i.e. us. Was there abetter way to do it? Maybe. Does the fact that we are responsible for keeping an eye on our own government get him off the hook for "breaking" the law? Nope.

October 20th, 2003, 18:22	#8
TallFlyer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 554	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) While I can understand the volume of tips that the TSA might get is probably huge, I do think it's laughable that it took someone 5 weeks to discover his staff of stuff after he sent an email with the exact location on whatever plane that stuff was. This is what I find funny: a quote from a TSA admin person: "Amateur testing of our systems do not show us in any way our flaws,'' McHale said. "We know where the vulnerabilities, are and we are testing them... This does not help.'' Hmm, you know your vulnerabilities? I would call that a large load of horse manure myself. If a rank amatuer, a pacifist even, can get through TSA security, what about professionals? And I think AirborneMedic is absolutely right. SOMEONE in out government should be regularly testing TSA and other airport security measures. Something like the first scene of Hackers. Anyways, I doth ramble to much....

October 20th, 2003, 18:48	#9
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,311	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I dunno if it's done, but they need to do these tests internally and build on the findings. At least before this incident, the TSA provided the perception of security to the general public. Now, even that one positive aspect of the TSA is gone because they continue to publicly fail do to do what they were designed to do.

October 20th, 2003, 19:01	#10
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,373	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I kind of dug it. I think he exposed a weakness. Was it his "job" to do so? Nope. Not technically... and he'll be punished accordingly. But, he made a national mockery of the TSA. My only concern is that things will "tighten up" and make things harder on the folks the TSA are already harassing - i.e., the crew, the rampers, old ladies... etc.

October 20th, 2003, 20:46	#11
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I dunno ... I don't think it was the kid who embarassed the TSA. I think they did that all by themsemselves.

October 20th, 2003, 23:54	#12
Mavmb Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,169	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) Well the kid is going to be in big trouble for what he did. Regardless, his actions do prove a point at what a joke our TSA is. TSA is just a bunch of minimum wage, uneducated employees, many of whom probably barely have high school diplomas or GEDs. Well whatever they're background, their pay is piss poor and the low pay encourages them to be lazy. I'm sure they're thinking, "check for terrorists, I don't get paid enough to do this!" As a result, who do we see getting searched at the airport gates? Families and little old ladies. It's never people that may pose a threat that get checked, it's just the people who look cooperative that get stopped at the gates.

October 21st, 2003, 00:03	#13
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) Actually, they make pretty good money, about $40,000/year starting. <- <- at least that's what I've heard. However, I think the #1 head honcho hasn't a clue what to do beyond spend 100% of his appropriated budget.

October 21st, 2003, 00:15	#14
MrSkyKingRon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Vero Beach, Ft.Pierce Posts: 216	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) My first initial reaction was, "great, if things were not bad enough, this is all we need from some bonehead kid, giving the government and TSA more reason to inflict us with more useless rules and reg's!!" Things like taking off your shoes and confiscating nail clippers and all the other stupid security changes at our GA airports. Plus the non-flying general public already has a scewed-up and uninformed enough oppinion of the GA and commercial world without something like this only making matters worse. My .02. I'm still angry at him. Yes, and it's so true that the TSA has a long way to go. I wish they would go away, what a pain in the ass. But, perhaps that one catch of an actual terrorist act would make it worthwhile, but what are the odds that they'll actually pull that off? I'm not holding my breath.

October 21st, 2003, 00:20	#15
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] Well whatever they're background, their pay is piss poor and the low pay encourages them to be lazy. I'm sure they're thinking, "check for terrorists, I don't get paid enough to do this!" [/ QUOTE ] I don't call being paid $30,000-$40,000 for unskilled labor underpaid. Moreover, I don't see how being underpaid always leads to poor job performance. What about firefighters, police officers, teachers, and flight instructors? Most start at the same money or less as a TSA employee, however most do a pretty good job in my opinion. Mav, do say, "teach landings today, I don't get paid enought to do this!"

October 21st, 2003, 00:47	#16
montanapilot Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Portland, Orygun Posts: 1,643	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] Wow, lucky we have mav here to spout off a bunch of crap that isn't even true [/ QUOTE ] the Pan-Am personal insult slugfest ought to stay in the Pan-Am forum and not leak to the general topics.

October 21st, 2003, 01:14	#17
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I love it when you guys automoderate!

October 21st, 2003, 08:06	#18
Bryan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: MN Posts: 43	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I think it is impossible to find every possible weapon. A box knife may get through more often then not. Hopefully they are better at catching "real" knifes and guns and I would assume they are. After 9/11, people are going to react different too. If somebody stands up waving a box knife and screaming "allah is great, your all gonna die" there is going to be a serious a$$ kicking going on. We are not going to sit and take it anymore. Anyway, through the guy in jail.

October 21st, 2003, 08:32	#19
naunga Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 981	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) That is absolutely correct!! And I'm glad to see that there are people in this country who still understand that WE are in charge of the government, not the other way around. People forget that. They need to be reminded often. Oh, and did you guys happen to see the deputy chief of the TSA on NBC Nightly News last night? He said something to the effect of, "We don't expect to catch 100% of threats at the checkpoint. That why we have multiple layers of security." That was a load of #####. If they had multiple layers of security at some point the guy would've been caught. I mean the guy even sent emails to the TSA. If you didn't believe the TSA was simply window dressing before, I hope you do now. Naunga

October 21st, 2003, 10:28	#20
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] After 9/11, people are going to react different too. If somebody stands up waving a box knife and screaming "allah is great, your all gonna die" there is going to be a serious a$$ kicking going on. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't bet on that. The weeks and months following 9/11? Sure. But now that we're two years removed from the event life has pretty much gone back to normal - i.e. people are worried about their mortgages, losing their jobs, their kids latest report card, etc. I have a sneaking feeling that if someone were to stand up on an aircraft today fewer people would do something about it than we would hope. Never under estimate the sheepishness of the general population.

October 21st, 2003, 10:43	#21
davetheflyer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: KATL, Georgia, Tennessee Posts: 1,016	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) I voted for overhaul TSA and punish him accordingly. Hopefully, his punishment will take into account that his goal was to enhance security, but if it needs to be strict enough to discourage further copycat security testers.

October 21st, 2003, 10:50	#22
naunga Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 981	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) Check this out: Click Here.

October 21st, 2003, 10:52	#23
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,922	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] I have a sneaking feeling that if someone were to stand up on an aircraft today fewer people would do something about it than we would hope. Never under estimate the sheepishness of the general population. [/ QUOTE ] I dunna, man. If you have three options, and two of them result in you getting killed, what are you going to do? Option one is to sit there and do nothing. Result? You're dead. Option two is to fight the hijacker and get killed in the fight. Result? You're dead. Option three is to kick the living daylights out of the hijacker and subdue him. Result? You live. So if there is only one way to ensure that you live, I think that self preservation will kick in and people will subdue the hijacker. By the way, getting back to the subject here, I think that the TSA needs to be investigated and they need to figure out just how to make it actually work. Yes, there is a need to make sure that aviation is secure. But is the TSA's approach the best way to do it? That's a question that needs to be asked and I don't think it is. But they also need to punish the kid who, after all is said and done, broke the law.

October 21st, 2003, 11:08	#24
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] I dunna, man. If you have three options, and two of them result in you getting killed, what are you going to do? Option one is to sit there and do nothing. Result? You're dead. Option two is to fight the hijacker and get killed in the fight. Result? You're dead. Option three is to kick the living daylights out of the hijacker and subdue him. Result? You live. [/ QUOTE ] It's one thing to say folks, who at this point are nothing more than namless, faceless "people" will stand up and fight. It's one thing to assume that these people are courageous and strong and would sacrifice themselves for others. Its another matter entirely when those folks have names put to them, faces applied to them and placed in a situation where no matter what they do they stand a very good chance at dying. In that situation I fear most people will sit idly by and watch their fate unfold infront of them. Most folks don't think "if I'm going to die, I'm going out fighting." Most folks go into shock, fear, rationalization etc. I see it in every person I've ever trained in martial arts. Its a different mindest, one that needs to be cultivated and one that even with years of training is still hard to will into acting upon. Because when "it" really happens no one knows what theyr'e really going to do. I just don't think as many people will stand up and fight as we - the general public - would like to think.

October 21st, 2003, 11:34	#25
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: College Student, The TSA and Southwest Airlines (A Poll!) [ QUOTE ] He said something to the effect of, "We don't expect to catch 100% of threats at the checkpoint. That why we have multiple layers of security." [/ QUOTE ] Really? Where is the other layer? At MCO, there is the security chekpoint and the big machines to x-ray checked baggage. Other than that, TSA is not present. When driving through security checkpoints on airport property, they are staffed by AIRPORT security, not TSA. When this fiasco first started, they had TSA at the gates to screen selectees. If you didn't know what was going on, it LOOKED like they were pulling random people. Now the selectees have their own line at the checkpoint. Funny story though. An Ops agent used to get really irritated at passengers who did not have their boarding pass or photo ID ready when he needed to check them to board the plane. He would send them over to TSA for 'extra screening.'

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