What's a low time pilot to do?

[azpilot84]

What are options for a pilot with about 250TT/25ME, all within the past 12 months, Commercial ME and an Instrument rating?

My goal here is to avoid debt:

-Gulfstream (or anything similar) is definitely out of the picture ($30k+)
-Trying to avoid a "time building program" ($5k-$10k+)
-Getting CFI CFII and MEI is a valid option, and I'm probably gonna get some guff for saying it, but $12k-$18k in additional debt just doesn't sound fun. It's not that it's beneath me to do it cause I'm aware of the benefits of instructing, I just want to avoid the debt.

I know some regionals have their official mins that low but how many are actually taking people with that low time and no college degree, dual given, 121/135 experience, or "specialized" training (first officer course, CRM classes, etc..)?

If anyone has some good options please let me know. I'm open to any suggestions and the help will be much appreciated.

[X-Forces]

Get your CFI initial and start to teach. Your pay can supplement the CFII and MEI, so you won't have to go deeper into debt.


Just my $.02

[Ian J]

I think your estimates for the instructor ratings are WAY too high. Those certificates involve more studying than flying. I'd estimate at an average FBO you could do your CFI for 2000-ish, double I for 600-700, and assuming you have 15 ME PIC already, your MEI for about 1200. Plus whatever the writtens and DEs cost.

I'd think of it as an investment, and as something you'll be glad you did once you get a bit further down the road.

[azpilot84]

Very good point Forces.

I also have one more concern. My wife and I have a baby due in Feb so a good job with consistent pay and decent benefits wouldn't be bad either. But beggars usually can't be choosers.

[azpilot84]

I got those estimates from the school I'm currently at and a couple other FBO sites that have posted prices. The lowest I found is about $4000 for initial, $1200 for II, and about $1000 for MEI. But it's a shady school with somewhat questionable MX.

[X-Forces]

Originally Posted by azpilot84

I got those estimates from the school I'm currently at and a couple other FBO sites that have posted prices. The lowest I found is about $4000 for initial, $1200 for II, and about $1000. But it's a shady school with somewhat questionable MX.

That sounds about right actually, price wise for an FBO.

[X-Forces]

Originally Posted by azpilot84

Very good point.

I also have one more concern. My wife and I have a baby due in Feb so a good job with consistent pay and decent benefits wouldn't be bad either. But beggars usually can't be choosers.

CFIs are starting to command much better salaries then in the past. I know that our CFIs over here will make considerable more then a 1st year regional FO, or even a second year FO for that matter (Depending on the airline). CFI might be the right route for you.

[ILS37R]

A good bet to make some money and time-build while having a stable income? CFI.

Get your CFI then find a place with decent pay that will help you with (or outright get you) CFII and MEI. There's quite a few places out here willing to do that kind of deal. You may have to make a 12-month commitment if you want to get training on the house, but with a year you should be able to build enough time to be a little picky when you make your next step--which could be really important with a young one in the family. Depending on your partner's fiscal position, you may have a little extra cash to work on a UVSC degree or something similar.

If you want to avoid CFI altogether, a few outfits hire with a multi/comm ticket... Scenic/Grand Canyon does if you don't mind Vegas and several regionals (check airlinepilotcentral.com) have their mins all the way down there, but generally there's a reason they're the bottom-feeders.

Some survey or aerial photography gigs may be open to you, but likely you need a little more TT for insurance.

[Ian J]

Have you researched the FARs to see what exactly is needed to earn the instructor certs? Studying on your own and being proficient in the plane will drive down those costs. Pay by the hour only, and ensure the FBO is training to proficiency, not to some artificial "program" they sell you for 12k.

Other than instructing, there are a slew of other jobs from parachute dropper to aerial mapping to traffic watch out there for lower time guys. These of course are location dependent.

I'm a huge advocate for being a CFI though - others have different opinions and people surely have made it in the airline biz without doing it. But CFI-ing is a pretty good way to do it, in my opinion.

[azpilot84]

I know there are places with mins that low but what mins are they taking people at?

[azpilot84]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Have you researched the FARs to see what exactly is needed to earn the instructor certs? Studying on your own and being proficient in the plane will drive down those costs. Pay by the hour only, and ensure the FBO is training to proficiency, not to some artificial "program" they sell you for 12k.

Other than instructing, there are a slew of other jobs from parachute dropper to aerial mapping to traffic watch out there for lower time guys. These of course are location dependent.

I'm a huge advocate for being a CFI though - others have different opinions and people surely have made it in the airline biz without doing it. But CFI-ing is a pretty good way to do it, in my opinion.

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know of any parachute dropping, aerial mapping, or traffic watch places that are hiring someone with 250TT/25ME? Honestly, I'll move anywhere as long as there's a job there for me, preferably with health benefits.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by azpilot84

Honestly, I'll move anywhere as long as there's a job there for me, preferably with health benefits.

I'd venture to say that it's almost impossible to command benefits as a drop or traffic watch pilot, with your times.

I agree that the CFI is your best bet. I'd bet that you can do your CFI for less than $2000, your CFI-I for less than another $1000.

Here's one school that offers bennies, and there are many, many more out there.

[Ian J]

I don't - but a bunch of guys here recently were hired with Rochester Aerial Mapping - you can search for those threads about it.

As for the others, many get those jobs through hanging out at their flight school and talking to people. A school I used to instruct at had a traffic watch deal, but it only let their CFIs do it.

[azpilot84]

Don't schools or FBOs generally want me to come already with CFI, II, & MEI? From what I've been told and what I see on job requirements it's somewhat difficult to get hired with just initial and little to no dual given.

[X-Forces]

Originally Posted by azpilot84

Don't schools or FBOs generally want me to come already with CFI, II, & MEI? From what I've been told and what I see on job requirements it's somewhat difficult to get hired with just initial and little to no dual given.

You must be kidding.

Not anymore, over here you can get hired on with a fresh CFI and get your CFII and MEI for free while you work.

[azpilot84]

Thanks all for the input. You've cleared up some things and gave me some ideas. If you have any other suggestion they're still welcome.

Thanks again.

[Nihon_Ni]

Another point is that teaching student pilots is much easier than teaching instrument or multiengine pilots. I interviewed a MEI once who told me he wasn't quite sure about the airspeed & power setting numbers in the BE-90 (at the school where he worked), so "we'd just go out and figure it out." Now, when I was a student flying C-150s for $50/hr that would've been okay because I wouldn't have known any different. But I wasn't about to hire this guy at $175/hr to be an opportunity for him to learn. I told the chief pilot I wanted a different instructor and was really glad I did.

Think about your own training -- would you have wanted to pay a CFII who had never given a single hour of instruction? How about a MEI for your commercial ME rating? Yikes! Get your CFI-A and get some experience. Then when you know how to instruct you can move onto the extra ratings.

Blue skies,
Rob

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I think your estimates for the instructor ratings are WAY too high. Those certificates involve more studying than flying. I'd estimate at an average FBO you could do your CFI for 2000-ish, double I for 600-700, and assuming you have 15 ME PIC already, your MEI for about 1200. Plus whatever the writtens and DEs cost.

I'd think of it as an investment, and as something you'll be glad you did once you get a bit further down the road.

His estimates for instructor ratings are spot on, if he attends an academy. They're charging between $14-18k for CFI-MEI!

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

His estimates for instructor ratings are spot on, if he attends an academy. They're charging between $14-18k for CFI-MEI!

Ack! Highway robbery, I tell ya!

[ComplexHiAv8r]

First, welcome to JC! You will find alot of discussions and information here, just remember its an internet site and that you cant see the emotions of the user on the other end.

Second, know that I am a low time pilot, considered career changer.

Seeing that you only started flying a year ago, I am guessing that you saw the change in the industry towards lower time pilots getting to 121 and decided to make this a career. Correct? You do know that a college degree will be needed to move forward to a major airline in the future. It might not be required, but is surely is preferred. Do you have a plan in place to get a degree?

It is true that some places are hiring with low time, and those places are seeing ALOT of washouts during training. I heard a number of 50-80% (if you include the pilots that don't even show up for the class after they have accepted to). They are out there. CJC and PDT are a few just. Every regional has its issues and is different from the others, its in choosing which is best for you.

Understanding the debt side of the coin, you could either try and get with one of the low time 121 operators, or get the CFI and instruct. You will see on this board more of a push to the CFI, which I will agree with 80% of the time (please note I am not a CFI). I know of a local place here in OH that will pay for your CFI if you agree to stay for 1000 hours. Not that I would recommend it for multiple reasons, and it will take about 1.5 years for the 1000 hours. Others have mentioned other training companies offering, you need to see what is best for you.

Good Luck and ask any questions you might have!

[mooneyguy]

Just look around a little before jumping into some high priced program. For instance, one of our advertisers had a program (I say had because there was just an accident and the program is temp on hold) to obtain all (initial, II, MEI) for around $6995, and I would bet they would hire you in a second! If you dont mind moving check out the big "training" cities DFW area, Several places in Florida! Start with the flight school section here on JC!
Good Luck

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by azpilot84

What are options for a pilot with about 250TT/25ME, all within the past 12 months, Commercial ME and an Instrument rating?

My goal here is to avoid debt:

-Gulfstream (or anything similar) is definitely out of the picture ($30k+)
-Trying to avoid a "time building program" ($5k-$10k+)
-Getting CFI CFII and MEI is a valid option, and I'm probably gonna get some guff for saying it, but $12k-$18k in additional debt just doesn't sound fun. It's not that it's beneath me to do it cause I'm aware of the benefits of instructing, I just want to avoid the debt.

I know some regionals have their official mins that low but how many are actually taking people with that low time and no college degree, dual given, 121/135 experience, or "specialized" training (first officer course, CRM classes, etc..)?

If anyone has some good options please let me know. I'm open to any suggestions and the help will be much appreciated.

Who in the hell wants $12,000 for your CFI's!?!?!?! You can get them done for MUCH less than that. You're looking at more like $5,000.

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Who in the hell wants $12,000 for your CFI's!?!?!?! You can get them done for MUCH less than that. You're looking at more like $5,000.

The Train is right. Skymates charges $6995(for CFI, II, MEI)....it cost me around $4000. Go get your CFI initial then go teach indians out west for $40G's a year. I'm single, live with my parents and fly for a regional and I'm struggling to get by on first year pay. With a little one on the way-I'm sure you could use a higher salary.

A side note- the cost of Gulfstream shouldn't deters people- it should be the principle of it.

[surreal1221]

12-18k for CFI's?

Man oh man where are you training. Ouch

I got my MEI and CFI for under $1500 - if that.

But yes, the norm is $5000 for all three.

[bdhill1979]

My CFI ground Class was $300
I needed about 12 hours in the air after commercial at 105+40=145x12=$1740
Examiner fee for the CFI Initial was $500

Total:$2540

CFII cost me exactly 3 hours in a DA 20 which I was getting at a discount since I am a flight school employee: $73 x 3=$219
Examiner Fee $350

Total: $569

I am working on the CMEL and MEI concurrently at a big discount, All told I will have to pay for the 15 PIC hours approx $2000
Examiner fee $350

Total $2350



Grand Total for CFI, CFII, MEI: $5459

and everything since the initial has been while working, I just have it taken out of my paycheck.