Rookie Mistakes Evidence of "Bar Lowering"??

[LoadMasterC141]

I love how NASA got caught red-handed trying to cover it all up, you know, to help the fragile economy out. Amazing how far our national perspective on safety has come.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22...air.safety.ap/

[DE727UPS]

"At a briefing in April 2003, FAA officials expressed concerns about the high numbers of incidents described by pilots because NASA's results were dramatically different from the FAA's own monitoring systems showed.

An FAA spokeswoman, Laura Brown, said the agency questioned NASA's methodology. The FAA is confident it can identify safety problems before they lead to accidents, she said."

Yeah, right. That's why duty time and rest rules haven't been changed since the DC3 days.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"At a briefing in April 2003, FAA officials expressed concerns about the high numbers of incidents described by pilots because NASA's results were dramatically different from the FAA's own monitoring systems showed.

An FAA spokeswoman, Laura Brown, said the agency questioned NASA's methodology. The FAA is confident it can identify safety problems before they lead to accidents, she said."

Yeah, right. That's why duty time and rest rules haven't been changed since the DC3 days.

You mean 16 hours of work, 5 hours of sleep, 16 more hours of work and then 7 hours of sleep isn't safe?

Huh...

[nocturnalaviator]

"come on, come on, listen to the money talk."
-ACDC

[LoadMasterC141]

Everytime I read about pilot work rules, I get even more depressed at the lunacy of how the “squeaky wheel” system is still used to make laws. The only reason the trucking industry has more strict laws, is because Soccer Moms needed something else to do besides be members of MADD, so they formed MATT(Mothers Against Tired Truckers), after some moms drunk son(this is true) got hit by a tired trucker.

Then they got on with 48 hours and Dateline, and escalated from there. Total Fatal accidents with Large truck accidents, at the time, were just under 10%. Today, they are hovering around 7%, after the rules were tweaked by about an hour. Most say it has more to do with technology than the work rules.

Maybe you airline pilots just need to start emailing soccer moms and let them know how much sleep you have had over the last few days before their precious Jimmy got on the plane. Maybe that will get more press than the few “Mesa”-type stories I have seen on the 60 Mins shows here and there.

Except you are going to fear being fired, whereas actual tired truckers that promoted the hours-of-service change, were mostly Owner-Operators. Also, the truckers have two powerful associations, which lobbyas good as a union. I would think ALPA would be lobbying for safer work-rest rules, being your representative to the airlines’ HR department?

[jtrain609]

The problem is that nothing will change until an airplane runs into a mountain with two sleeping pilots up front.

Chances of that happening? Pretty slim.

But the chances of one or both of those guys being barely awake and catching the mistakes they make beacuse of fatigue? Well, wait until you get up front one of these days, or maybe you saw it yourself in the Air Force. The problem is that folks shouldn't be put in the situation where they're gonna start making a ton of mistakes because of fatigue.

I don't like to complain about my job too much, but Jesus if rest requirements aren't something that just floor me.

[zmiller4]

The survey's purpose was to develop a new way of tracking safety trends and problems the airline industry could address. The project was shelved when NASA cut its budget as emphasis shifted to send astronauts to the moon and Mars.

I knew that a lot of productive unmanned space projects were getting de-funded for the same reason, but it floors me that important *terrestrial* safety programs are getting cut so that we can build a freaking Moon Base.

[LoadMasterC141]

or maybe you saw it yourself in the Air Force.

I think our rest rules were pretty solid in the AF. Sometimes fatigue was there but it was crew induced for the most part; Everyone went drinking on min crew rest. Perhaps after a 27 day mission, that was only supposed to be 17, a bit of fatigue sets in as well.

However, we always had AT LEAST 15-15(Min Crew Rest-15hrs 15 mins from the time you got to the hotel until blocks the next day). Usually always had a 24-48 after 3-4 days of straight min crew rest as well.

Also got 30 days vacation/yr, 3 days a month personal time, 1 day post mission crew rest for every 3 days out,up to 9 now I believe(They cannot call you!). 24 hours pre-mission crew rest as well(Waiverable to 12 quite easily though).

[nocturnalaviator]

So many numbers

[Velocipede]

Crew Scheduler's motto: "If its legal, it MUST be safe."

[GalaxyIFE]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

I think our rest rules were pretty solid in the AF. Sometimes fatigue was there but it was crew induced for the most part; Everyone went drinking on min crew rest. Perhaps after a 27 day mission, that was only supposed to be 17, a bit of fatigue sets in as well.

However, we always had AT LEAST 15-15(Min Crew Rest-15hrs 15 mins from the time you got to the hotel until blocks the next day). Usually always had a 24-48 after 3-4 days of straight min crew rest as well.

Also got 30 days vacation/yr, 3 days a month personal time, 1 day post mission crew rest for every 3 days out,up to 9 now I believe(They cannot call you!). 24 hours pre-mission crew rest as well(Waiverable to 12 quite easily though).

Yep...are still pretty good. sure we might have a 24 hour day, but it's for augmented crews...aka, in-flight sleep periods. Some of the post-mission crew rest is still waived, but it ain't bad. Now after 9/11...well that really sucked. For a couple of years, it wasn't uncommon to "time-out." Without divulging too much on the Dover C-5 mishap (like you can't find the CVR out there ), crew fatigue WAS mentioned in the findings.

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Crew Scheduler's motto: "If its legal, it MUST be safe."

Crew schedulers do not determine if something is safe, they schedule based on the the FAR's and company's rest requirements. Don't blame scheduling for the rules, blame the company and the feds.

[LoadMasterC141]

Gotta agree with him there. Coming from middle management, we get S*** from above and below, yet are bound by the rules the above makes.

It is the greedy executive, who will always claim he/she had no idea what was going on, in a court of law, who is the person saying "they cannot touch me because I follow the law. All I have to do is keep funding Crooked Joes campaign fund and we should be all set (Insert Dr.Evil Laugh here)".

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

The problem is that nothing will change until an airplane runs into a mountain with two sleeping pilots up front.

Planes have crashed because of sleeping pilots. They were cargo craft though, if there were 200 people in the back a little more light might have been shine on it.