Taxi to vs. Hold short

[usphsfnp]

When ground tells me to "taxi to Rwy xx," I've always read back "Hold short Rwy xx" I thought it conveyed my understanding to ATC that I knew not to taxi onto the runway without further clearance.
Prevously I've never had any problems, but the other day, after I read back hold short, they came back with the typical ATC "I can't believe I have to tell you this" voice, and said "TAXI TO xx."
Okay- so is there a difference?
Thanks-
Brian

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Any time you are given a clearance to taxi to your assigned departure runway, it is implied that you will hold short. On the other hand, if you are given clearance to taxi to a runway and you must CROSS a runway that is not given as an active in the ATIS, you need not receive a clearance to cross that runway. For example, when landing back at our home base of Norfolk on runway 5, we make a right turn off, taxi down Foxtrot toward the GA ramp, and cross runway 32. Unless the wind is howling out of the north, 32 is rarely ever listed as an active in the ATIS, and therefore we do not need a clearance to cross it. However, if I'm flying a small piston and don't want to wait in line for runway 5, I request runway 32, since it is about a 5 second taxi from the ramp. Although 32 is not listed as an active in the ATIS, it is my departure runway and I am now expected to hold short until receiving takeoff clearance from the tower.

[usphsfnp]

I understand that you can cross runways to get to the active if you are cleared to the active, but I was wondering if there is a difference to ATC in hearing "taxi to" vs. "hold short" and why they would correct me?
Maybe one ATC guy was just having a day.
Thanks!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

On the other hand, if you are given clearance to taxi to a runway and you must CROSS a runway that is not given as an active in the ATIS, you need not receive a clearance to cross that runway.

I think even if it's listed as "active" on the ATIS, a clearance to "taxi to" a runway gives you the authority to cross all runways except the runway mentioned in your taxi clearance.

In other words, it doesn't matter what the ATIS says, all that matters is what the controller says . Although it would certainly be good practice to confirm no one is on final/taking off before you cross other runways.

[mooneyguy]

That does not make sence to me. the way the controllers are hounded today about runway incursion the hold short is issued by them every time you are given a taxi clearance. its my understanding they are suppossed to give you the HOLD SHORT if thats what they want you to do.
I would incourage you to call the tower boss and just ask him in a friendly way. what said controller is doing seems it could cause some confussion.

[usphsfnp]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

That does not make sence to me. the way the controllers are hounded today about runway incursion the hold short is issued by them every time you are given a taxi clearance. its my understanding they are suppossed to give you the HOLD SHORT if thats what they want you to do.

I would think so too. At the Class D I used to fly out of, they'd give me a "taxi to" and I'd read back "hold short" just to be clear, and everyone was cool with it. But at this new Class D (which has 3 intersecting rwys) I was corrected. Seems weird to me too. I'm just getting a feel for what others encounter.
Thanks!

[OldTownPilot]

Have any of you read the AIM?

Seriously?

If I'm on the ramp WTF does hold short of the runway mean?

Taxi to the runway means something. Any taxi instructions will include the phrase "taxi to". Taxi instructions may INCLUDE a hold short, then "hold short" must re read back. A specific hold short instruction is given by the tower when you call ready for takeoff.

Have you seen the FAA airport diagrams. On there it says "All hold short instructions must be read back". Read it back when you are given a hold short instruction, Don't when you are not given it.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by usphsfnp

and I'd read back "hold short" just to be clear,

That would be like telling the controller you have the ATIS and then reading it back to him/her to confirm. You don't have to - it's assumed that you know what the ATIS info contains.

The same thing goes for the "taxi to" instruction. A clearance to "taxi to" a runway is NOT a clearance to taxi onto it.

In the future, I would respond with "taxi to runway XX". If you really feel you want to "confirm" the hold short in your mind, I suppose you could always say "taxi to and hold short runway XX".

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by usphsfnp

When ground tells me to "taxi to Rwy xx," I've always read back "Hold short Rwy xx" I thought it conveyed my understanding to ATC that I knew not to taxi onto the runway without further clearance.

You received a taxi instruction. Whether or not you say "hold short" in addition is probably not a big deal. But if you didn't read back the "taxi to" clearance itself, I'm not surprised the controller was a bit perturbed. It's not one of those "must" read back items, but in these runway incursion days, ATC is always looking for confirmation that you understood the instruction.

If your "hold short" was in addition to the read back of the instruction, I'm not sure, but I know that "hold short" instructions =are= required read backs and the controller may simply prefer that pilots read it back only when it is given.

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Have any of you read the AIM?

Seriously?

If I'm on the ramp WTF does hold short of the runway mean?

Taxi to the runway means something. Any taxi instructions will include the phrase "taxi to". Taxi instructions may INCLUDE a hold short, then "hold short" must re read back. A specific hold short instruction is given by the tower when you call ready for takeoff.

Have you seen the FAA airport diagrams. On there it says "All hold short instructions must be read back". Read it back when you are given a hold short instruction, Don't when you are not given it.

Someone's having a case of the Mondays

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Have any of you read the AIM?

Seriously?

If I'm on the ramp WTF does hold short of the runway mean?

Taxi to the runway means something. Any taxi instructions will include the phrase "taxi to". Taxi instructions may INCLUDE a hold short, then "hold short" must re read back. A specific hold short instruction is given by the tower when you call ready for takeoff.

Have you seen the FAA airport diagrams. On there it says "All hold short instructions must be read back". Read it back when you are given a hold short instruction, Don't when you are not given it.

Do have any idea how many times I have had to pull out the AIM on renters and student pilots this last week alone?

I swear people think it optional reading.


Radio Call I heard a guy renting one of our airplanes on monday; with 4 fixed wing and 3 helicopters in the pattern already.

"Um, yeah,.......Im just gonna make a right base from 6500 feet (1000 feet above traffic pattern), can the traffic about to turn left base wait a minute for me? Is that OK?"

The six different "No!" responses blocked each other at first.

[calcapt]

Think about this. The guy who issues you the clearance to taxi out to the runway is ground control and the guy that controls the runway is the tower controller. The ground controller is simply telling you to taxi out to the runway via whatever route he clears you for. Or, if he doesn't specify, go the way you want. It is implied that before you get to the runway ground will switch you to tower and he will tell you what he wants you to do with respect to the runway. Some small airports have the same guy filling both roles, but that is not the norm. It goes without saying that if you don't get switched to tower or ground gets occupied, you always hold short of the departing runway.

If he said "taxi to rwy xxx and hold short", he is saying things that don't need to be said and can be misinterpreted. For example, if I hear that specific clearance, I am wondering to myself "he wants me to taxi to the runway but wants me to hold short of what?" If he says "taxi to the runway" I know I am cleared to taxi all the way there, and won't plan on stopping before I get there. If he does want you to hold short of something before you get there, he will say something like "Rwy xxx, taxi Bravo, Delta, Uniform, hold short Victor. He mentions the runway in the clearance just so you know which one he plans on you using.

[usphsfnp]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Think about this. The guy who issues you the clearance to taxi out to the runway is ground control and the guy that controls the runway is the tower controller. The ground controller is simply telling you to taxi out to the runway via whatever route he clears you for. Or, if he doesn't specify, go the way you want. It is implied that before you get to the runway ground will switch you to tower and he will tell you what he wants you to do with respect to the runway.

Yes, but the ground guy can clear you to cross an active runway that tower guy controls.

Either way, I understand the difference now. The "taxi to" implies a "hold short," and a readback of "hold short" without a "taxi to" is not correct. So, a "taxi to, hold short" readback is redundant, but is probably not a bad idea, with the recent FAA focus on runway incursions.
Thanks for the input guys!

[SpiraMirabilis]

The ground guy can't clear you to taxi across an active runway without calling (on a landline, so it can be recorded) Tower. If you were up in the tower you'd hear something like this:

Ground punches Tower button.
Tower: Local.
Ground: Ground. Crossing runway xx.
Tower: Cross runway xx.

So, a "taxi to, hold short" readback is redundant, but is probably not a bad idea, with the recent FAA focus on runway incursions.

I understand what you mean but its really not a good idea either. She's expecting a certain response and you throw her something different. It's going to take her a couple of a seconds to realize what you meant since it is a non-standard phraseology reply. She'll have to think for a second: Why did he say hold short? Is he going to taxi all the way to the runway or is he going to hold somewhere? -- It just increases the work-load on the ground controller.

Essentially what you think creates clarity in fact creates confusion.

If you want to emphasize that you're holding short, and possibly save Tower a sentence, when you're waiting for take-off instead of saying: 'At runway xx, ready for departure.' just say 'Holding short runway xx, ready for departure.' You might then get a 'Roger.' instead of a 'Hold short, runway xx.'

[BuickCFI]

in my experience the phrase "hold short" is always followed by a different runway, taxiway, intersection etc they want me to hold short of. i.e. "Taxi to runway 17R hold short runway 26"

[Ian J]

The real question is what do you read back when you hear this from the ramp, all in one transmission:

Cleared to X Airport as filed squawk 1234, taxi to runway 33, cleared for takeoff, contact departure.

[OldTownPilot]

"as filed, 1234, cleared for takeoff 33, departure"?

Flying a bit much in the wee hours of the morning? It's even more cool when you get that at what is normally a really crazy airport like BOS or TEB.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Ian J

The real question is what do you read back when you hear this from the ramp, all in one transmission:

Cleared to X Airport as filed squawk 1234, taxi to runway 33, cleared for takeoff, contact departure.

"ground, just because information whiskey is current doesn't mean you need to be drinking it"

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by Ian J

The real question is what do you read back when you hear this from the ramp, all in one transmission:

Cleared to X Airport as filed squawk 1234, taxi to runway 33, cleared for takeoff, contact departure.

"1234, see ya tomorrow."


For the OP, you have to always hold short of the runway you are cleared to regardless of being told to hold short. This gets even more important when the route to the end of your assigned runway crosses your assigned runway at some point. They can just say "taxi to runway 33" but that'll assume a hold short midway down. A rare event but definetly does happen.

[HercDriver130]

If he wanted you to taxi into position and hold....HE WOULD SAY SO....

If he wanted to clear you for take off ...HE WOULD DO SO....

Good radio procedures REQUIRE that you LISTEN to what the controller is saying.

I have received a clearance before at a very remote airport such as this....."TRUCK 55, cleared to taxi runway 27, upon reaching "A" you are cleared for Takeoff".....

Listening is the key.... 99.9% of the time they will tell you what they want....

Bottom line...taxiing TO..is not the same as taxiing ONTO.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

"ground, just because information whiskey is current doesn't mean you need to be drinking it"

You mean you've never gotten one of those? Guess you don't stay out late enough

[flyover]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Read it back when you are given a hold short instruction, Don't when you are not given it.

Exactly.

This particular controller just wanted you to read back his clearance, not get creative as you have been doing.

[MikeOH58]

The only things you are gonna hear are taxi to runway xx, taxi to runway xx and hold short of runway xx or an intersection, or taxi to xx, hold short of xx and give way to the xx.

Theres no need to say your holding short...Its just stupid and unnecessary radio chatter...I don't mean to be a dlck, but this is standard pre solo stuff, and if your in a buisy area and sounding silly on the radio, then your going to get a silly response, and most likely a deny to most of your request.

K.I.S.S. is one of the most important acronyms to know in aviation.

[PurduePilot]

From my limited experience in the ATC world, if you mentioned "hold short" in a clearance that wasn't explicitly told as much I would get pissed too.

A "hold short" clearance is a red flag for both parties. When I give a hold short clearance it's for a good reason (because the active runway is being used or I'm putting a guy in front of you coming out of the parking lot). When you arbitrarily use it, my ears perk up a little bit because I start wondering did I give one or didn't I?

A "hold short" clearance is serious business. There is a reason why, you as a pilot, have to read back all hold short instructions VERBATIM and I, as a controller, have to verify you have read them back VERBATIM. DO NOT use "hold short" unless the controller issues it to you FIRST.

By the way the phraseology for a "hold short clearance" will be different from a standard "taxi to" clearance. It will go like this "Skyhawk 53624, Nantucket Tower, Runway 24 taxi via bravo, echo, HOLD SHORT runway 15." I have to wait for a conformation that you understand the "hold short" instruction and "roger" doesn't cut it.

[PurduePilot]

When ground tells me to "taxi to Rwy xx," I've always read back "Hold short Rwy xx" I thought it conveyed my understanding to ATC that I knew not to taxi onto the runway without further clearance.

You need explicit clearance to cross or taxi onto any runway, especially the one which you will be using to takeoff from.

If you decide to taxi onto that runway on your own accord you're in some serious trouble at the very least. Believe me when I say that's the least of your problems. At most airports that runway is both used for arrivals and departures, so you'll be lucky if someone doesn't land on top of you.

In an effort to communicate your intentions to hold short of your assigned runway (which you have to do anyway) you're just creating confusion.