Flying The Line - Vol. 1 and Vol. 2

[ClearedForOption]

I just finished Flying the Line Vol. #1 and Flying the Line Vol. #2 and I don’t know what to think.

In general, they were well written “history” texts. They both gave a sense and a flavor of the organization of ALPA, how business is transacted, and the national politics of the organization. One big thing that they didn’t do was bring the issues into perspective for how they affect the day to day line flying pilot. (and yes, I know that’s not the purpose of the books, they are historical texts – but they are being used today to “educate” pilots on the benefits of the union and really need to be appended accordingly)

People need to be educated on the issues presented in the books. You almost need a “Cliff’s Notes” for each section. For instance – the UAL Blue Skies contract in Vol. 2 How did the contract (and the givebacks) affect the pay and QAL of the day to day average line pilot. Pre Blue Skies and Post Blue Skies. What did they have, how do those provisions protect the pilot, and what happened when they were taken away. Or, Frank Lorenzo… most young pilots have very little memory of the 80’s except for Gi Joe and Transformers cartoons. We wouldn’t know a Junk Bond/Savings and Loan scandal from a hole in the ground. Heck, I used to like Reagan until I read about his administration’s history with the Pilots and ALPA.

I think the union is a great thing and is very needed, but you are not going to win converts by passing out these two books. They are DRY people! They are too high level, to use an analogy they deal with the “whole battlefield” and what you need to be doing is educating people on what’s going on in the trenches. It needs to be simple and informative.

So, it’s not a hard stretch of the mind not to get excited about a debate on terrorism/skyjacking of the 70’s and 80’s (in the post 9/11 world) and a 3 chapter debate on the value of the “3rd crewman” when my day to day reality is more like that of the airmail pilot of the 30’s.

The book didn’t really start getting interesting till the middle – enter LORENZO. But, still – you need those Cliff’s Notes. You almost need a history of the history. A lesson of the 80’s, the “greed is good” years and such. Most pilot’s starting out today are coming out of the recession years, they’ve seen predatory economics their whole lives – it’s old hat. “Downsizing”, “Dilbert” and “The Donald” are household words to us. And, again, for the millionth time, it’s hard to sympathize and feel like you have a connection with another pilot group when you only have 8 days off and are working 20 days, 14 hour days, and somehow only making guarantee.

Anyway, I read them Bass-Ackwards - Vol. 2 before Vol. 1 (because of the USPS…) and in the end it seemed to make more sense to me to read them that way. I found out that I have a lot more in common with the “old men” of Vol. 1 than the deregulated pilots of Vol. 2.

Lots of very interesting issues were brought up in the books and I am left with a sense of wanting to know more. I’m still collecting my thoughts on the books and hopefully will have more to come.

[Velocipede]

Hard to believe any pilot would find these books dry...they are incredibly important to understand if you want to know how the industry got where it is today.

And if you can't see and appreciate the repetitive attempts by managment to undermine pilot wages/benefits, then you really are obtuse. E.L. Cord to Frank Lorenzo, the story is the same every single time. And the reliance of "Cliff Notes" indicates intellectual laziness. If you can't appreciate the importance of this history to give it the attention and time it takes to read the volumes for comprehension, I weep for the future of the piloting profession.

"Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

[Maximillian_Jenius]

I missed vol. #1 at NJC , but got vol. #2!

[saxman66]

I just started Volume 1. I'm actually enjoying it. I never would have thunk that even the very first commercial pilots were forced to fly in less then 100 yards vis. or fired on the spot. I always thought of that as the hay days of aviation where everyone respected the pilots decision. Guess not...

[Velocipede]

The more things change, saxman, the more they stay the same. Keep that saying in mind as your read the books.

[BuickCFI]

i actually am reading them now too, slow progress as i only have time to read a few pages a day, but so far i find them fascinating

[Bigey]

Dang now i want a copy...Anyone want to sell me theres?

[MDPilot]

Originally Posted by Bigey

Dang now i want a copy...Anyone want to sell me theres?

EBay is your friend....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Flying-the-Line-...QQcmdZViewItem

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Hard to believe any pilot would find these books dry...they are incredibly important to understand if you want to know how the industry got where it is today.

And if you can't see and appreciate the repetitive attempts by managment to undermine pilot wages/benefits, then you really are obtuse. E.L. Cord to Frank Lorenzo, the story is the same every single time. And the reliance of "Cliff Notes" indicates intellectual laziness. If you can't appreciate the importance of this history to give it the attention and time it takes to read the volumes for comprehension, I weep for the future of the piloting profession.

"Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Was this really neccesary, Velo? The dude was obviously interested enough to obtain and read the books, and understands the historical context in which the pilot labor unions are needed.

The airline pilot labor movement is having a tough enough time connecting with the current generation of pilots. It doesn't need you as its informal representative alieniating current/future/potential members simply because you don't think they meet your personal intellectual standards.

[USMC-SGT]

Originally Posted by Bigey

Dang now i want a copy...Anyone want to sell me theres?

go to the alpa site and register for info, there is usually a request more info on the bottom with checkboxes and flying the line 1 and 2 are on there, they will mail them to you

[kellwolf]

I've never see Vol 1, but I've seen Vol 2 and thrift stores and used bookstores a LOT in this area. I chalk it up to the high volume of Fed Ex pilots or bitter Pinnacle pilots.

Reading Vol 1 really had me thinking "Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it."

[DE727UPS]

"Was this really neccesary, Velo?"

I don't think so.....

ClearedForOption. Don't let the Alaska Captain get you down. Thanks for your input. Velo and my generation aren't the same as the new generation of folks that need to be reached. If it takes another type of media to reach them, then that's fine.

Perhaps a computer game with management as the evil empire and the unions coming in to save the day would work (just kidding). But seriously, I can see how there could be a better way to reach newbie pilots than giving them a book that was written about things that happened so long ago. They might have a hard time relating.

As for Velo, his hard core stance on using the jumpseat to enforce his personal views is exactly the opposite of what ALPA should be looking for to effectively educate people.

[CapnJim]

But all the same, you had better read those books word for word or you're not welcome on his jumpseat.

I wonder what Velocipede would do if word got around about his personal jumpseat policy, and he found himself unwelcome on many people's jumpseats because of it? If you ever need to teach your children the definition of "irony", you can use that possibility as an example.

[DE727UPS]

I think the big problem with his stance is how it could effect his Alaska brothers as they may try to ride on non-union carriers. Velo using the jumpseat to push his personal agenda could easily cause an Alaska pilot to get left behind. This doesn't bother him in the least. It sure would me....

"and he found himself unwelcome on many people jumpseats because of it"

Velo has stated that he doesn't care because "HE" doesn't ask for rides at such places. This doesn't take into consideration that his brother pilots could be effected by his attitude.

Just the other day my F/O was hoping to get to LAS on time cause there was an Allegient MD80 with a direct flight to South Bend, where he lives. Catching a ride with them would save him several hours getting home after being up all night and save him having to go through the ORD nightmare. Can you imagine my F/O showing up and the Capt saying "Sorry, a UPS Capt bumped me a year ago for no good reason so now I don't give rides to UPS guys...have a nice day....

THAT, is the ugly repercussion of Veloism.

[CapnJim]

Thank you for catching my typo. I fixteded it.

Hopefully, Velo will one day realize that "HIS" jumpseat is not only a two-way street, but a ten-way street. In the meantime, we can count ourselves fortunate that his behavior is in the overwhelming minority.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

As for Velo, his hard core stance on using the jumpseat to enforce his personal views is exactly the opposite of what ALPA should be looking for to effectively educate people.

And once again, I find it laughable that an IPA Cargo pilot would think his opinion on ALPA and/or Passenger Airline operations would be of any value.

I don't generally chime in on IPA issues or how to run a Cargo airline simply because I recognize my lack of background and experience makes my commentary invalid.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

ITHAT, is the ugly repercussion of Veloism.

Actually, you've succintly boiled it down to the difference between our philosophies. You're in the "its all about me" camp. How will this affect MY ability to freeload a ride wherever and whenever I want to go? If I refuse to give a Union negotiated privlege to a non-Union pilot, how might that affect ME when I want to go somewhere.

I'm more in the "its all about US" camp. How does the existance of these low ball scumbag airlines and their non-Unon labor affect ALL of us? How come USAir, UAL, and Delta pilots had to take draconian pay cuts so their airlines could compete with the jetBlue, Virgin, Skybus and Allegiants of the world? And do I feel compelled to help their pilots get to work so they can continue to lower the bar for all of us.

Again, since you're a Freight hauler, employed by a Company who has a printing press for money in the back room, I wouldn't expect for you to care or understand the problems we're facing. Perhaps your time would be better spent helping Shannon Jipsen and Mike Moody instead of sounding off on topics that don't affect you.

[dakovich]

i remember my first ALPA meeting....scared the piss out of me. never been to (never want to), but it made me feel like i was at a clan meeting. yelling, screaming, cursing and going on. i was preparing myself for them to pull out a dummy wearing a suit, hanging from a poll, and lite it on fire. it was creeeeeeppppyyyy. Veloci....your attitude turns lots of people off. you're an angry person. i believe much of what you say has validity, but the way you put people down doesn't help your cause.

[ClearedForOption]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Hard to believe any pilot would find these books dry...they are incredibly important to understand if you want to know how the industry got where it is today.

And if you can't see and appreciate the repetitive attempts by management to undermine pilot wages/benefits, then you really are obtuse. E.L. Cord to Frank Lorenzo, the story is the same every single time. And the reliance of "Cliff Notes" indicates intellectual laziness. If you can't appreciate the importance of this history to give it the attention and time it takes to read the volumes for comprehension, I weep for the future of the piloting profession.

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

Was this really neccesary, Velo? The dude was obviously interested enough to obtain and read the books, and understands the historical context in which the pilot labor unions are needed.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Was this really neccesary, Velo?" I don't think so.....

As Velo had to remind another poster that he was a CRM instructor and not to judge a book by it’s cover, I should pass along that I am Jesuit trained with a degree in Communications and Philosophy. It was not a case of intellectual laziness. While reading both Flying the Line Vols. 1 & 2 I was looking at it both with the critical eye of someone who has been trained to market and package information and as a line pilot, where the gains and strides made by the union against management affect my every day life.

It is with my “communications” eye that I called the book dry.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

ClearedForOption. Don't let the Alaska Captain get you down. Thanks for your input. Velo and my generation aren't the same as the new generation of folks that need to be reached. If it takes another type of media to reach them, then that's fine. I can see how there could be a better way to reach newbie pilots than giving them a book that was written about things that happened so long ago. They might have a hard time relating.

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

The airline pilot labor movement is having a tough enough time connecting with the current generation of pilots. It doesn't need you as its informal representative alieniating current/future/potential members simply because you don't think they meet your personal intellectual standards.

My point, was that my generation of pilots – the so called “iPod wearing, spiky haired, backpack carrying” generation (which are typically the pilots 5-10 years younger than myself) for the most part will not resonate with the books. There is extremely critical information in them – and it had been pointed out over and over again. The modern day E.L. Cord and Frank Lorenzo are abound. I actually work for what some would call the worst offender in the industry right now.

There is no organized program to educate my generation of pilots on the history and benefits of the union in a way that (in my opinion) they can resonate with and understand. It is almost a case of putting the cart before the horse.

In my own case, I’ve worked at two 121 carriers. At both the initial exposure to the union was disappointing. I’ve worked at “S” and “M”. At “S” – it took them four months to even get around to organizing my class – and the organization consisted of a unknown union rep putting an application in my company mailbox. This was after EVERYONE in my class called national to tell them, “Hey, get us signed up please! We want to be in the union” Oh, and I was glad-handed by the current MEC chairman, can’t forget that. At “M” at least we got dinner after a few weeks into ground, a short video, and a chance to ask questions. The video was about how not to act unprofessional. I think out of the 50 people there, I asked 70% of the questions because no one knew what to ask. (8 to 10 questions for the rep one rolling into the next one trying to get the group to think) It was a great forum to educate the group – mostly wasted. (I do give them points for trying)

So, Velo, DE, Hacker, and everyone… I have to thank you… while writing this response to all of the posts, you all gave me an idea and helped me identify a big problem, one of education. A few weeks ago, while sitting here at home waiting to go to the sim I wrote my MEC and told them: Hey! I’m new and I want to volunteer. They asked me, so… what would you like to do? I told them, “Here are my credentials… I have no idea, I’m new. What do you need me to do? I’m at home and will do anything you like to get started, give me a mundane task.”

I know what I can do now… I can try to educate my generation of pilots.

What we need is a primer on the union. The thing about FTL is that it is an advanced work. When read it boils down to: Management is evil, will climb over you, they do not care about your QTL, safety, rest, or anything except the mighty dollar. They will push you, abuse you, and kick you while you are down. Here are a bunch of ways they did it in the past. Here’s how we dealt with it on a national scale and built our association. (and here’s what happened to those that didn’t stand firm with us)

What young pilots need is: “A guide to understanding the pilot’s contract and the theory of negotiated labor agreements” or how to have a quality of life without getting fired and make a living in the process.

Up until a few weeks ago I didn’t know what a trip rig or a duty rig was. Most people don’t understand block or better vs. historical avg. block. Most of the guys in my class didn’t understand bidding for trips. All they knew was reserve=bad, line=good. I myself probably don’t understand most of what you need to know to survive as a line pilot. This is a tiny example of the BASICS that most people need to know.

We have a generation of ignorant pilots out there who need to be fed the experience that Velo and DE and others have gained through hard work and time.

I read some great resources out there are on the Skywest ALPA organizing site, and I’m sure that there is a lot more out there. Any ideas or good resources out there that anyone knows about that I can look at outside of Google searches?

Anyhoo... off to meet the wife for lunch, I am very late and she is going to be very peeved at me.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by dakovich

Veloci....your attitude turns lots of people off. you're an angry person. i believe much of what you say has validity, but the way you put people down doesn't help your cause.

Two problems with your statement. First, you have no idea whether I'm an angry person or not. Its the baggage you're carrying that causes you to read things into my statements.

Second, pointing out the lack of credentials someone has to comment on a topic does not qualify as a "put down". Its merely a matter of stating the facts. Go read Don's self-written "how I got to be a UPS pilot" blub. For someone who has never flown an airplane with more than 18 passenger seats, he sure has a lot to say about passenger airline operations. Likewise, the IPA is 1/20th the size of ALPA and has less than that much experience in all the arena's of pilot representation that ALPA does.

So, I will always defer to Don when it comes to the topics of Cessna flying in Wenatchee, hauling tourists around the Grand Canyon, and flying freight. That is his experience. That is where his credibility lies. Other subjects, not so much.

[kellwolf]

One of the things that I think would help a LOT is drawing parallels b/w things that are currently happening in the airline industry with events that have occurred in the past. Most of the people coming up today are visual learners. Reading books is going the way of the dodo and being replaced by multi-media content on a website. If it's not moving, it's not going to hold the attention span as well anymore. Such, sadly, is the case with books.

So, maybe a PowerPoint presentation comparing some of the events going on now (bankruptcies, drawn out labor talks, beat downs from managment) and specific references to things from FTL. You can probably start with comparing the current strife at US Air with the separation of AA from ALPA. Or, taking that a bit further, you could illustrate that the issue at US Air doesn't really fall at the feet of ALPA but at the local leadership level. Too many people aren't aware of how ALPA is structured and immediately rush to blame ALPA national when their own elected officials from their airlines are to blame. Case in point, if US Air had been Teamsters, the results would have been the same with the same leadership in place.

[PCL_128]

ClearedForOption, first of all, I think it's great that you took the time to read these books. It's very important for all of us to understand the history of the union and the profession. I first read these books when I was a brand-new RJ copilot. I had no idea about how this industry had been in the early days, and it was a wake-up call to see just how little had changed in management-labor relations in that time. The same playbook that you see management use in Vol I is the very same playbook that they're using today. It's important for new pilots to understand this, because it helps them to identify bullsh&* and not get sucked into management's mind games.

I disagree that the books were dry, but to each his own. The important part is that you took away the knowledge about the history of the union and the profession. If you're interested in getting involved in the education of your fellow pilots, then I would first suggest talking to the Chairman of your MEC's Communications Committee. That would be your best bet for getting involved with your skillset. Later on, after you learn more about the union and the profession, you could help with the National Education Committee which is always looking for help.

Thanks for your interest in serving your fellow pilots and your profession. We could use more guys like you.

[DE727UPS]

"I wouldn't expect for you to care or understand the problems we're facing."

Oh, I understand where you are coming from just fine. I happen to disagree with you and you play the "freight" or "IPA" card in an attempt to belittle my opinion because you'd rather not discuss the negative aspects of how you use the jumpseat to push your personal agenda.

"Perhaps your time would be better spent helping Shannon Jipsen and Mike Moody"

I was a union volunteer in the past when they had the ATC committee. That went away years ago, though. I have recently volunteered to be on the accident investigation committee but not heard word back yet.

"instead of sounding off on topics that don't affect you."

Pretty much anything that comes up at this forum I choose to respond to is fair game. Your feeble attempts to silence and belittle folks who differ with you at this site is laughable. I've been around here long enough to see how a person commands respect here and how one doesn't. Keep up the good work. You're doing great....

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Two problems with your statement. First, you have no idea whether I'm an angry person or not. Its the baggage you're carrying that causes you to read things into my statements.

........

And for many, Perception is Reality.

A person may not like that, but it is what it is.

[CapnJim]

I agree with DE727. And I'm ALPA.

So there's that.