Great Lakes Airlines

[rdsoxpilot]

Got off a flight on Great Lakes, and talked with the F/O. He said that the mins. when he got on were 375TT/50ME, and that within 4 months on the job he was looking to upgrade by early next year.

Can anybody confirm this or was this guy just blowing smoke? (no pun intended)

[woog315]

Great Lakes will put you in the left seat at ATP mins. It has pretty much always been the case at lakes that as soon as you get to mins, you have a chance to upgrade soon afterwards. They are the worst pay in the industry (by an impressive margin even), there is no pay during training, and they have notoriously difficult training. Unless you want to fly a 1900D for personal or career reasons, I don't see any reason to go there.

[Pilot84]

They are the worst pay in the industry (by an impressive margin even)

Wow, first year FO $15, second year $17, and third $20. Next time I see one of the pilots from Great Lakes, I offer to buy a cup of coffee. Even with such a low upgrade time, it does not look that attractive at all.

[PilotBeckfizzle]

I have a few friends that fly for them and minus the pay they absolutely love it.

[WalterSobchak]

I wouldn't buy some one a cup of coffee for going to Mistakes. People who love it there are to low time to know any better. I mean really $15 /hr 1st yr no pay during training and in the 20's when you upgrade. With all the other careers out there hiring such low time how does Great Mistakes even get people?

[tprops4me]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

I wouldn't buy some one a cup of coffee for going to Mistakes. People who love it there are to low time to know any better. I mean really $15 /hr 1st yr no pay during training and in the 20's when you upgrade. With all the other careers out there hiring such low time how does Great Mistakes even get people?

If the most important thing is upgrade time, then it makes good sense to go there. There are people who have no financial obligations or families to worry about. What ever works best for them. It seems you have to give a little to get a little evreywhere you go these days.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by tprops4me

If the most important thing is upgrade time, then it makes good sense to go there. There are people who have no financial obligations or families to worry about. What ever works best for them. It seems you have to give a little to get a little evreywhere you go these days.

Thats the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Thats like someone saying it's okay to work for Gojets if you don't mind stabbing your fellow pilots in the back. Working for Great Mistakes says to people "Hey, I don't give a flip about anything. I'll fly in that right seat for peanuts and a banana just so I can tell people I swallowed my pride, lived below the poverty line and took one so I could fly a turbine powered aircraft"
I've not settled for less though I took the 135 route and started out VFR, moved to IFR and have always made a damn fine living at it.
People should remember there is more to aviation than Flight Instructing (which is an honest profession that professionals can make a good living doing) and regionals that can still get them to their final career destinations.

[fly8slep]

Baj I agree with you except that GLA is just a small EAS operation that isn't hurting anybody by having $15 per hour pay, and tprops does have a point. GLA I would imagine gets young pilots with no signifcant obligations who don't mind the low qol for a VERY quick upgrade, under a year, something they won't get at other regionals that take 3-5 years for an upgrade.

[bike21]

I have two sad tidbits to share about the life of a Mistakes pilot (good friend of mine)

1) Had to live parents basement

2) I made more than him when he was a 3rd year captain and I was a 2nd year FO at OO.

Hmmm...suck much?

[taseal]

these kinda places, i'd only go because nobody else will take me due to my student visa/job situation lol

I hate seeing these threads and thinking I might have to go to one of these airlines that'll take me, and work for fricking peanuts

[tprops4me]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Thats the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Thats like someone saying it's okay to work for Gojets if you don't mind stabbing your fellow pilots in the back. Working for Great Mistakes says to people "Hey, I don't give a flip about anything. I'll fly in that right seat for peanuts and a banana just so I can tell people I swallowed my pride, lived below the poverty line and took one so I could fly a turbine powered aircraft"
I've not settled for less though I took the 135 route and started out VFR, moved to IFR and have always made a damn fine living at it.
People should remember there is more to aviation than Flight Instructing (which is an honest profession that professionals can make a good living doing) and regionals that can still get them to their final career destinations.

To my knowledge Great Lakes is not an alter ego airline. They also fly 19 seat turbo props instead of 70 seat regional jets. I dont see how you can compare the two. Also when you upgrade in six months you are not making $15 an hour. It goes to $26, which is $5 more an hour than first year people at Colgan. What I said was objective, not lame. Again thats of course if they waited until they have a good amount of hours until they sent a resume so they can upgrade when the time comes. I can see it's not your thing, but to many it can be a smart move. They fly props so no one can say they save SJS. They have the magic pic hours, and start thinking about a major or whatever that much sooner. They just don't make crap. They have taken no ones flying away. At least no more than any other regional is doing these days. In my eyes its a clean move.

[bike21]

tprops - go work there for 6 months - file your own flight plans, get notice of your annual checkride 2 hours before leaving on a 4 hour standup, do said checkride when you are supposed to be resting, make less money than working flipping burgers, etc.

Then come back and tell us "its a clean move"

[tprops4me]

Originally Posted by bike21

tprops - go work there for 6 months - file your own flight plans, get notice of your annual checkride 2 hours before leaving on a 4 hour standup, do said checkride when you are supposed to be resting, make less money than working flipping burgers, etc.

Then come back and tell us "its a clean move"

OK. Let me put it this way. I could give two Sh#$s about Great Lakes Airlines. I am not defending them or recruiting for them. My initial post was just saying that if you are chasing the fast upgrade, and did not care about compensation, then it was just as good a choice as any other regional. My second post was arguing the comparison of it to Go Jet. I have never heard Velo say that he would deny a jumpseat to someone from Great Lakes. If it was on his list, I would consider them possibly shady. Now before any of you accuse me of making my decisions on what Velo says, it was a joke. Finally, I think anyone at any airline can find something that sucks bad. You will make more flipping burgers than you would at any regional, except maybe two, first year. One thing I learned long ago is not to do this for the money. In the military we had a saying. Choose your rate, choose your fate. Same thing here. Make your choice, then deal with all the consequences. Don't read anymore into it than that.

[kellwolf]

I think the point is it's airlines like GL that make it difficult for other places like ASA, Pinnacle, Mesa etc to get decent pay rates. Management looks at Lakes and says "Wow! Those guys will do essentially the same job for HALF what we're paying our guys! Why should we give them raises?" Doesn't matter if their a "small EAS carrier," they ARE hurting people. They're flying turbine equipment in a 121 environment. How is that different than Colgan's 1900s? It doesn't matter two beans to me if it's got a quick upgrade. They're professional pilots and should be paid like them. This whole "happy to be here" mentality is what's killing us.

I happen to think their CA pay rates are a crime against humanity, especially when you see FO payrates at other places. So, you upgrade in a year at GL? Great. You're making a whopping $1 more an hour than a Colgan 2nd year FO in the SAME AIRPLANE!

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by tprops4me

To my knowledge Great Lakes is not an alter ego airline. They also fly 19 seat turbo props instead of 70 seat regional jets. I dont see how you can compare the two. Also when you upgrade in six months you are not making $15 an hour. It goes to $26, which is $5 more an hour than first year people at Colgan.

That's not the point sir.

They're still paying someone $26/hour to be in command of a very sophisticated aircraft with lives in the cabin. The type of person who understands that responsibility deserves a hell of a lot more than $26/hour.

You know it's a sad day when Colgan outpays you by $10/hour for first year captain.

[tprops4me]

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

That's not the point sir.

They're still paying someone $26/hour to be in command of a very sophisticated aircraft with lives in the cabin. The type of person who understands that responsibility deserves a hell of a lot more than $26/hour.

You know it's a sad day when Colgan outpays you by $10/hour for first year captain.

I would not tell someone to work there. I would not work there. I am just looking at it from the other side of the fence. You guys would know better than me. No argument there. As far as deserving more money, Smittey, I could not agree more. You guys deserve better everything.

[jml2992]

I threw bags for GLA while I was getting my CFI. Their money spends the same as everybody elses, there just isn't as much of it. Some markets out there don't really need anything more than a 19 pax eggbeater and that is where the EAS bid system comes from. Honestly, I couldn't do just because the paycheck is less than I made at my first CFI gig and I still wonder if I could have stuck it out to make the left seat in less than a year but in retrospect, I am so glad I didn't. If you really don't mind the schedule (expect the high-speeds for the first six months as an FO and then back again as soon as you get your fourth stripe,) I'd say go for it. Most of the folks I know that work there are standup guys that worked their @$$ off to get where they are. But I do agree that the "Happy to be here" days need to be long gone and we need some accountability for our profession. My question comes in the way of union influence. Shouldn't the union be raising hell with management regarding the fact that most of the crews are living from paycheck to paycheck? I guess it's my frustration with the SJS students that have come traipsing into my office lately...spouting "Blah-Blah Airline hires at 500 and 50." I don't like being the hard dose of reality and telling these folks that they might need to examine their options before they pack up for 50 day commercial pilot school but I also know that it has to happen. Right now, I would just like to hear one flight instructor who is happy with the fact that they get to fly an airplane everyday.

[bike21]

Amen brother! I always enjoyed CFI'ing for the most part, gotta have some LOVE the job!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by jml2992

Shouldn't the union be raising hell with management regarding the fact that most of the crews are living from paycheck to paycheck?

Another example of how the union is only as good as the membership. If everyone is just happy to be there, there's no great push to change anything. After all, they're just there to get their 1000 TPIC and go on to SWA, right?

[SteveC]

<Moved thread from Jobs Available forum. Read This Before Posting (No, seriously. READ THIS) >

[astrelin]

I am a "Laker" and having read this thread I'm more than a little frustrated at the opinion Great Lakes has on this forum. Here's the truth, Great Lakes is a regional airline just like any other. It has positives and negatives. Now I made my decision and I'm obviously going to have bias. Great Lakes isn't for everyone. If you're a little older, have family, etc. You should instruct a little longer and get on at a more "upscale regional" like SkyWest or Horizon. If you are enamored by Jets and need to compensate for something, you shouldn't come here. But, if you have a good contact and a desire to get to the Major Airline of your choice (aside from the ones that want Jet time, i.e. Continental, don't get me started on that argument) Great Lakes is a fantastic place to work your hide off, upgrade, get your PIC time, make a few great friends, and get on with your career.

Positives are:
Quick upgrade: 300 hrs at GLA is the only limiting factor aside from the FAA ATP mins of 23 yrs old and 1500 TT.
Great base: I'm sorry but some of us don't like the east coast, and would loathe to live in places like Memphis or Detroit.
Great coworkers: Nearly everyone at lakes has the right attitude, is here for the right reasons, and knew what they were getting into. Lakes is more of a brotherhood than any 121 carrier I've heard of and for more on our sense of humor and attitude feel free to check our own forum www.readytocopy.com.
Great experiences: Most crusty old Captains will tell you that flying a turboprop for a few years is a valuable experience. We are allowed to arrive/depart VFR and we use that to take a few "scenic tours" near airports like Page, AZ right on Lake Powell near the Grand Canyon.
Great Industry recognition: We fly without autopilot, flight attendant, or APU (in the beech) and 7-9 leg days are typical, the company screws with us just like every other airline but for the most part Lakers keep a decent attitude. Major airlines recognize that we're hard workers and it shows when each month about 3-5 of our Captains are hired at Frontier, 1-2 at Alaska or Southwest, and 1-2 at a Corporate/Fractional. Thats with a total pilot group of just over 200. Frontier recently hired one of my pals with under 1000 PIC (he finished flying the month and ended up with 1000.)

Negatives:
Low Pay: this one is the most glaring, 16/hr 1st year FO, 26/hr 2nd year CA. Also they don't pay through initial training. I think this is a huge problem from Lakes and it shows when we have trouble hiring. I think the company is going to have to make some changes in order to get pilots (supply/demand) and that's okay. If you can survive a few years at Lakes it pays off when you're working at a Legacy at the age of 24 and building precious job security in the way of seniority.
No Jets: I'm sorry, and maybe this is jealousy speaking. But i'll fly a Jet for the rest of my career. I'm happy to be a turboprop guy for now. Not having certain luxuries (FA or Autopilot) just makes the next job that much sweeter. Oh and for those of you harping about the knowledge you gain from using FMS and how Jets are more complex so it's valuable experience, I've done the CRJ course at a major University so I know how hard an FMS is (3-4 hours of tinkering to learn) and anyone who knows basic Jet theory knows that a Turbofan is a simple engine while a Turboprop has a few more complexities, and both are turbine engines.
Flying to less than exciting places: This is a two-edged sword, because while I hate overnighting in Farmington, NM I love canceling about 25 miles from Telluride, CO and dropping in over the rocks into a crazy sloped strip at 9078' MSA that is 6870' long.

Lastly, for those of you that think we're any kind of detriment to the industry for flying at low wages. Remember, we're going into communities of 5-10k people and exploiting a failed government system called EAS (i.e. Garden City and Dodge City getting separate flights when they are 37nm apart.) While CRJ's are flying with upwards of 90 seats between MSP and ATL, and similar routes. Routes which used to be done by DC-9's or 737's by the mainliners.

Back to my initial point, Lakes is not for everyone and I applaud my friends at Mesaba, Horizon, Pinnacle, and Air Whiskey. I even have some jealousy issues with them about Jetways and cupholders. But for those of us who chose to work here understand why we did and what we're trying to accomplish.

[scramjet]

Originally Posted by astrelin

I am a "Laker" and having read this thread I'm more than a little frustrated at the opinion Great Lakes has on this forum. Here's the truth, Great Lakes is a regional airline just like any other. It has positives and negatives. Now I made my decision and I'm obviously going to have bias. Great Lakes isn't for everyone. If you're a little older, have family, etc. You should instruct a little longer and get on at a more "upscale regional" like SkyWest or Horizon. If you are enamored by Jets and need to compensate for something, you shouldn't come here. But, if you have a good contact and a desire to get to the Major Airline of your choice (aside from the ones that want Jet time, i.e. Continental, don't get me started on that argument) Great Lakes is a fantastic place to work your hide off, upgrade, get your PIC time, make a few great friends, and get on with your career.

Positives are:
Quick upgrade: 300 hrs at GLA is the only limiting factor aside from the FAA ATP mins of 23 yrs old and 1500 TT.
Great base: I'm sorry but some of us don't like the east coast, and would loathe to live in places like Memphis or Detroit.
Great coworkers: Nearly everyone at lakes has the right attitude, is here for the right reasons, and knew what they were getting into. Lakes is more of a brotherhood than any 121 carrier I've heard of and for more on our sense of humor and attitude feel free to check our own forum www.readytocopy.com.
Great experiences: Most crusty old Captains will tell you that flying a turboprop for a few years is a valuable experience. We are allowed to arrive/depart VFR and we use that to take a few "scenic tours" near airports like Page, AZ right on Lake Powell near the Grand Canyon.
Great Industry recognition: We fly without autopilot, flight attendant, or APU (in the beech) and 7-9 leg days are typical, the company screws with us just like every other airline but for the most part Lakers keep a decent attitude. Major airlines recognize that we're hard workers and it shows when each month about 3-5 of our Captains are hired at Frontier, 1-2 at Alaska or Southwest, and 1-2 at a Corporate/Fractional. Thats with a total pilot group of just over 200. Frontier recently hired one of my pals with under 1000 PIC (he finished flying the month and ended up with 1000.)

Negatives:
Low Pay: this one is the most glaring, 16/hr 1st year FO, 26/hr 2nd year CA. Also they don't pay through initial training. I think this is a huge problem from Lakes and it shows when we have trouble hiring. I think the company is going to have to make some changes in order to get pilots (supply/demand) and that's okay. If you can survive a few years at Lakes it pays off when you're working at a Legacy at the age of 24 and building precious job security in the way of seniority.
No Jets: I'm sorry, and maybe this is jealousy speaking. But i'll fly a Jet for the rest of my career. I'm happy to be a turboprop guy for now. Not having certain luxuries (FA or Autopilot) just makes the next job that much sweeter. Oh and for those of you harping about the knowledge you gain from using FMS and how Jets are more complex so it's valuable experience, I've done the CRJ course at a major University so I know how hard an FMS is (3-4 hours of tinkering to learn) and anyone who knows basic Jet theory knows that a Turbofan is a simple engine while a Turboprop has a few more complexities, and both are turbine engines.
Flying to less than exciting places: This is a two-edged sword, because while I hate overnighting in Farmington, NM I love canceling about 25 miles from Telluride, CO and dropping in over the rocks into a crazy sloped strip at 9078' MSA that is 6870' long.

Lastly, for those of you that think we're any kind of detriment to the industry for flying at low wages. Remember, we're going into communities of 5-10k people and exploiting a failed government system called EAS (i.e. Garden City and Dodge City getting separate flights when they are 37nm apart.) While CRJ's are flying with upwards of 90 seats between MSP and ATL, and similar routes. Routes which used to be done by DC-9's or 737's by the mainliners.

Back to my initial point, Lakes is not for everyone and I applaud my friends at Mesaba, Horizon, Pinnacle, and Air Whiskey. I even have some jealousy issues with them about Jetways and cupholders. But for those of us who chose to work here understand why we did and what we're trying to accomplish.

That, sir, is an excellent insight into the company. I've heard a lot about Great Lakes on these forums, but haven't heard anything from you guys on the line until now. Thanks for your input!

[bike21]

Good insight there. Like I said before, it has it's negatives (my previous points I made are factual) but it works for some folks! Good on ya for being happy!

[astrelin]

To answer the original post on here, yes our actual hiring mins (which are flexible as usual) are roughly 350-400TT and 25 or so ME. That's also what I hear Eagle hires at, Mesaba, Mesa, and Pinnacle hire around. If you're hireable in this current market you have lots of options and I don't think many will choose Lakes. Hopefully management figures this out soon, as we are picking up tons of EAS routes being dropped by Mesa and the like and we don't have the aircraft or crew to fly it.

Oh and we don't file our own flight plans (once in a long while I've done it when the dispatchers are busy cause computers are down or something.)

The movement is sick, I'm a senior FO after less than a year; I have 16 days off, only day trips to Telluride, and Christmas and New Years Eve. I'll be upgrading in March after I turn 23.

[PatrickCPS]

This is excellent insight into their operations from an actual pilot. I still think they pay is far too low, although I think its pretty clear that all starting pay these days is too low.

This probably wouldn't work for most, but as he pointed out, he is building valuable turbine PIC time at a young age and hopefully that will pay off for him in the long run. Its all about give and take in life.