Unions

[phoenix 23684]

Being new to the flying career and after seeing the developments at Colgan about trying to bring ALPA I would like to have some questions answered.

Have you personally experienced the pros or cons of having a union at your airline?

Do you feel that such a large union such as ALPA really has any good interest in you?


I ask these questions since I have no experience as a pilot in this industry and I seem to think after reading this that there seems to be a bulling by unionized people towards the non, rather than a helping hand. I also see large unions such as ALPA as organizations whose only concern in the end is making a buck. It is the basics of every business and I would find it difficult to believe that they would honestly care about my issues in little regional world.

What do you think of small or individual unions for each airline instead of a larger group one?

After reading the forums it seems that pilots concerns seem to be more on peace of mind or job security and QOL. i.e. not getting jerked around by crew scheduling.

Finally if large unions are such a great thing, why is our QOL so low as compared to other countries or other careers where same large investments were needed, i.e doctors, engineers?

Do you believe it would be worst right now without them? Perhaps in the past they serve a great purpose?


I would like to hear your thoughts but please no sarcasm or idiotic answers, if you can't comment on it with an intelligent and thought-out response then don't. I see a lot of sarcasm sometimes.


p.s. I have nothing but praise for the pilots here at Colgan that tried to do something to better the QOL, and again I have no experience and therefore I only ask to educate myself on the issue.

[BobDDuck]

Well, as I tagged the back end of another post, I am sort of down on unions right now. However, despite some of the minuses, there are a very large number of pluses.

-Job protection. If you do something stupid (or the company thinks you did something stupid) you will have protection and representation from the union. Also, with a bargaining agreement in place the company is (mostly) bound to follow the contract and can't just randomly go changing things such as pay rates, work rules and benefits.

-Knowledge base. You will get access to a huge knowledge base including safety, aeromedical and legal. The medical alone is probably worth the price of admission.

-Pattern bargaining. Basically, a raising tide floats all boats. If Company A agrees to pay their pilots such and such a rate, when Company B enters negotiations a year later they can say, hey, A gets this much. It's one year later and the industry is doing that much better. We should get A+X%.

There are more reasons to be a union (and not just ALPA, but any strong representative union), but I'll let people who have more experience then me list those.

[Seggy]

The larger the union the more power it has. The more power it has to protect YOUR interests as a member and the piloting profession.

It is up to your LOCAL pilot group to decide what it wants to do. ALPA national gives you the resources to use. It is up to your individual leaders if they use them.

ALPA wanting to make a buck? Couldn't be farther from the truth. They are there to protect the interests of pilots and our careers. ALPA survives by providing important resources and tools to its members. By protecting its members it flourishes. If they just 'wanted to make a buck' they would have been long gone.

[Hacker15e]

I would simply say to read Flying The Line. I was too eager to wait for the free copy offered by Seggy (sorry, bro! I definitely still want the one you offered for my library!) so I borrowed a copy from a friend of mine.

It's an eye-opener.

As I've posted many times before, as a military guy the concept of a pilot's union is pretty foreign because my employer actually gives a crap about me. When I originally started thinking about leaving the USAF and crossing over to the Majors, I wasn't really for unions in any way. It's mostly because I'm philosophically a capitalist and the concept of labor unions goes against that.

Primarily it was talking to squadronmates who also flew for Majors that changed my mind. Certainly, though, reading FTL cemented a lot of the ideas in my mind.

I'm still at this point not a 100% rah-rah union guy (still in the military, go figure), but there's no doubt in my mind that when the time comes I'll be an ALPA/APA/whatever member and supporter.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

I would simply say to read Flying The Line. I was too eager to wait for the free copy offered by Seggy (sorry, bro! I definitely still want the one you offered for my library!) so I borrowed a copy from a friend of mine.

I know I have to get them out. The woman who is dealing with it, had the USAIRWAY project come up and has been swamped with stuff from that.

I will know more later this week.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

As I've posted many times before, as a military guy the concept of a pilot's union is pretty foreign because my employer actually gives a crap about me.

That's the key, isn't it?

Get an employer who thinks of you as something more than just fresh meat and employees don't think about forming a union.

I don't understand why airlines don't treat their employees better. They have invested a BOATLOAD of money in their training -- those sims ain't cheap -- and yet they dump on them all the time.

Why would you crap on employees that you've spent a lot of money to train?

[kellwolf]

I'm getting back into reading Flying the Line right now, and if you want it's a serious eye opener on what has and could happen. There's even some parallels b/w things that management pulled in the 30s and things they're trying to pull now. Things like hiring pilots for below industry standard, using those lower wages to undercut competition and then threatening to furlough guys that don't take the cut. Sound familiar? The guys involved in that were called in, handed a letter that was a combo resignation/application for the new, lower pay rate and told "sign it or leave." They all left. Eventually, ALPA and their connections in Washington put that airline out of business while finding jobs for the pilots at other carriers. There were guys that crossed the picket line then, too. What happened to them? They found employment opportunities very slim after that.

One of things I didn't know about until I started reading was the benefits of a bigger, more connected union such as ALPA vs the independent unions like SWAPA and APA. ALPA has a LOT more clout in DC than the other ones, and they know how to use it along with their AFL-CIO association.

The book also does a good of highlighting the things we take for granted (especially in the safety area) of flying that ALPA had a large hand in developing.

The thing to keep in mind, though, is the union at an airline is really only as good as a) the membership and b) the local leadership. All the help in the world from ALPA national can't save you from an apathetic pilot group or poor local MEC leadership.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I'm getting back into reading Flying the Line right now, and if you want it's a serious eye opener on what has and could happen. There's even some parallels b/w things that management pulled in the 30s and things they're trying to pull now. Things like hiring pilots for below industry standard, using those lower wages to undercut competition and then threatening to furlough guys that don't take the cut. Sound familiar? The guys involved in that were called in, handed a letter that was a combo resignation/application for the new, lower pay rate and told "sign it or leave." They all left. Eventually, ALPA and their connections in Washington put that airline out of business while finding jobs for the pilots at other carriers. There were guys that crossed the picket line then, too. What happened to them? They found employment opportunities very slim after that.

One of things I didn't know about until I started reading was the benefits of a bigger, more connected union such as ALPA vs the independent unions like SWAPA and APA. ALPA has a LOT more clout in DC than the other ones, and they know how to use it along with their AFL-CIO association.

The book also does a good of highlighting the things we take for granted (especially in the safety area) of flying that ALPA had a large hand in developing.

The thing to keep in mind, though, is the union at an airline is really only as good as a) the membership and b) the local leadership. All the help in the world from ALPA national can't save you from an apathetic pilot group or poor local MEC leadership.

And that pretty much sums it up. Well said.

[phoenix 23684]

Thanks for all the responses, I think I will pick up a copy of flying the line to become more educated on these issues. I should have mentioned that I'm also former Air Force and I'm still having difficulties accepting the idea of unions.

[surreal1221]

In my observations, most military members who come back to the civilian world really do not recognize the power that unions can have.

Essentially due to the mentality that "Do as your told, don't ask questions," is the overwhelming mentality in the military. So I can see why it takes some military members making the transition a while to recognize the power a union can have for the individual worker.