Piper Seminole vs. Diamond Twinstar!

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Totally not an Airbus vs. Boeing-esque thread.

But was randomly thinking about this on the drive home from work at o'd dark thirty this morning. Looking for both opinions and facts.

I've never flown anything but at 172SP and an Archer III. Both planes, (the Seminole and DA-42) are the industry training standard for multi-engine planes.

With the Seminole being the old tried and true plane. And the DA-42, being the new jack in the city.

So what's up, opinions, facts, phone numbers. Give em to me!

[turbomax97]

I've flown both, and I feel that they're both great multi engine training a/c. The twinstar is AMAZINGLY quiet, costs tons less in fuel burn(85% power gives you 6.3gph)and cruises substantially faster. I think Diamond hit this one on the money! The performance figures are pretty darn close to the seminole as well.

Other sweet qualities:

DA-42 is ice cert.
DA-42's SE ceiling is 10000 feet... Compare with 5000 on the seminole if you're lucky!


Downside:

VMC i believe was 68 kts - and you DO have a critical engine. VYSE is 83 kts.

Overall, I like the DA42 so much better.

[jtrain609]

The Seminole is the easiest landing airplane in the history of the world. It also doesn't fly like most aircraft on a single engine. It's good to get the basics of multi engine flight down, and I think it's a great transition to a center line thrust jet, but if you're going to step up into something like a Chieftain then you're gonna get your butt kicked.

I don't know anything about the Twin Star, but I don't like the stick thingie. I mean I think it's a great idea, and I wish all aircraft were either center or side sticks, but it's just not the way it is. The avionics in the thing are better than what's in this jet I'm gonna be flying around, and the thing has freakin' auto feather.

The Seminole doesn't make you work for it, but I imagine the Twin Star will make you work even LESS, which IS NOT GOOD.

[jtrain609]

No no no, having a critial engine is GOOD!!!

Jeeze, these kids don't want to work for their paycheck anymore! Learn how to fly in something THAT WILL TEACH YOU HOW TO FLY, and NOT in something that will do everything for you.

[wheelsup]

From a personal standpoint, diamond products have always seemed "cheap" to me. The seminole has a solid feel to it, also they look like kit builds.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

I've flown both, and I feel that they're both great multi engine training a/c. The twinstar is AMAZINGLY quiet, costs tons less in fuel burn(85% power gives you 6.3gph)and cruises substantially faster. I think Diamond hit this one on the money! The performance figures are pretty darn close to the seminole as well.

Other sweet qualities:

DA-42 is ice cert.
DA-42's SE ceiling is 10000 feet... Compare with 5000 on the seminole if you're lucky!


Downside:

VMC i believe was 68 kts - and you DO have a critical engine. VYSE is 83 kts.

Overall, I like the DA42 so much better.

I'd say Diamond hit it on the head for a TIME BUILDING aircraft, not necessarily a trainer. If you're getting your CMEL, PMEL or MEI, who cares if it's certified in ice? You're gonna be doing that stuff in VMC anyway. Also, I don't think you'll need that service ceiling (unless MAYBE you're in the desert or mountains) doing those manuevers. I'd like to have that stuff if I'm flying cross country, but it's not necessary when training. As an instructor, I'd prefer a non-critical engine in an a/c when I'm training someone that hasn't had any ME experience. After they've got some experience dealing with a non-crit engine, then they can move up. It's all about steps in this industry. They'll still find ways to try to kill you even without a critical engine.

That being said, I've never actually flown the DA-42. I'm just going off of design features as to why I prefer the Seminole as a trainer. As a cross country airplane flying on trips, the DA-42 wins.

[Airdale]

Da-42 = teh UGLY

Seminole = Cool


Seminole wins.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Sub-topic time kiddies!

What is a cirtical and non-critcal engine!?

Thanks.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Da-42 = teh UGLY

Seminole = Cool


Seminole wins.

But it has winglets man, friggin' winglets. On a trainer!!!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Sub-topic time kiddies!

What is a cirtical and non-critcal engine!?

Thanks.

Not sure what a "cirtical" or a "non-critcal" engine is, but a CRITICAL engine is the engine that most affects the aerodynamics of the aircraft if it fails in flight. Non-critical engine aircraft have counter-rotating props.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Not sure what a "cirtical" or a "non-critcal" engine is, but a CRITICAL engine is the engine that most affects the aerodynamics of the aircraft if it fails in flight. Non-critical engine aircraft have counter-rotating props.

Smart ass...you work 12 hrs. on your feet!

Night!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Smart ass...you work 12 hrs. on your feet!

Night!

How about 14 with ATC being stupid and wx deviations?

[Champcar]

Duchess is the king of light twins.

Seminole you feel like you're sitting in a bucket and the Diamond is too electrically dependent with the FADEC, lose power, lose your engines.

[Doug Taylor]

Nah, the 737 is the king of light twins!

[surreal1221]

hahaha

Twinstar. . .easily.

Don't knock it till you try it.

What airplane in the light twin category can compete with an 8.8 (combined) gph burn @ 65% power output?

That's what I thouht.

[Crockrocket94]

Yeah, put a student in a plane with a Mixture, Prop and Throttle after having them train on the DA42 and watch them be all confused... :P

For training - Seminole/Duchess/Insert other light twin here with M/P/T controls.
When you are training, fuel burn is not the deciding factor in which makes a plane better.
The only thing the DA42 has in training is the Crit engine.. but it has no mix/prop controls.

I am not denying that it is a good plane, so for all you DA42 lovers out there....

but as a trainer... nah.

[Crockrocket94]

I think the only person here with both is Turbomax, and he isnt even talking about it as a trainer though.

Sorry, i guess we have to train in both to really get a feeling for which one is better for X task.

Not saying ive flown a DA42 yet, but it just seem logical.

[surreal1221]

Oh I'll agree. . .with my 55hrs of DA42 time, I'd be close to lost in a throttle, prop, mixture twin.

Although, give me 5 hours and I'm pretty damn sure I'd be able to figure it out.

I'll also say that having a critical engine, learning about it, doing VMC demos, and SE approaches is a very beneficial learning environment for even a private pilot.

Why shelter someone from learning about a critical engine, and honestly, ME aerodynamics until AFTER they have learned in a counter rotating airplane.

[aviatorrbt]

Side Note: For those actually flying the DA42, never fill the tanks and then leave the plane in the sun on the hot day. This plane easy over flows with the slightest heat change. 100% of the time I topped off the TwinStar and left it out for like 20 min the Jet fuel ran out the wings and went all over the ground. This in turn left huge black stains on the cement... not something I was proud about..

DA42 Wins with one little problem. The diesel engines have a lot lower life span than the Seminole/piston. Its not because the engine is worse/not as well built. It is because the FAA licensed it that way because the knowledge of continuous use with this engines is not well known yet.

[taseal]

twinstar looks SEXY

oh also, he seminole can't beused or 135 ops because of it's SE serv ceiling (what was it, like 3500?)

[taseal]

Originally Posted by aviatorrbt

DA42 Wins with one little problem. The diesel engines have a lot lower life span than the Seminole/piston. Its not because the engine is worse/not as well built. It is because the FAA licensed it that way because the knowledge of continuous use with this engines is not well known yet.

interesting.... diesels last alot longer in general, mainly due to their extreme compression, the engines are built really well (well at least in cars)

[taseal]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Da-42 = teh UGLY

Seminole = Cool


Seminole wins.

kinda funny how I think the opposite lol

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by taseal

interesting.... diesels last alot longer in general, mainly due to their extreme compression, the engines are built really well (well at least in cars)

According to this AOPA article, it's at 1,000 hours now, projected to go to 2,400. The difference is, once that time comes, you have to replace the whole thing instead of over hauling it. That's about $20k vs. the $13k-$15k to overhaul a comparable lycoming.

That being said, if you're burning 9 GPH with the Twinstar, and 18 GPH with a Seminole, that's 9 GPH more fuel burn X $3/gal X 2,400 hours which equals $65k more in fuel over the life of the engines. So you still come out ahead, and you get two brand new engines vs. just overhauled ones.

[Van_Hoolio]

Lower your carbon footprint! Train/fly in a Twinstar.

[wheelsup]

If they threw one of those diesels in an Eclipse that thing would MOVE!