Private Jets vs. Airlines

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

As have you, my friend. Obviously, your interest is in seeing YOUR boss not getting an ATC bill and deciding to sell the jet.

No no, that's where you are wrong once again. The boss could care less about the cost factor, they can afford it like most people in their position. It's the principle of the matter. The airlines are always looking for the easy way out. It's not about whats right, it's about what makes sense for them financially and congress will see that. What do you care anyway? Why do you have some personal vendetta against the wealthy? You sound like a jealous child. The airlines have taken away pensions (ruined people financially), cut pay drastically and basically stomped all over "labor" and yet you'll defend their cause to the death.

[B767Driver]

I've been following the FAA reauthorization bill and the ATC modernization funding in the press for the past year as an objective observer, as I'm an airline employee and general aviation enthusiast.

I have yet to see any information presented that puts the costing of ATC in any rational perspective.

I see lots of factoids and tidbits offered by both sides political camps, lots of emotional drivel, downright stupid public awareness campaigns, and nothing of any substance from anybody.

What I have not seen is a simple balance sheet that shows income and expenses of the services involved. And I've searched for such an item in public records.

Until I can see a comprehensive financial evaluation of the entire system, I have no way to comprehend or put into perspective any of this crap.

Right now, all I can see, is a sophomoric argument being made at a political level.

Somebody, needs to present the big picture. Can anyone here do that? I'd be surprised if anyone could.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

No. It does not. There are no TEB departures that go to the East.

99% of TEB departures use the TEB5 (the only IFR departure SID). Departures off TEB are sent to the West and are held at 1500-2000 MSL until cleared higher by EWR (between EWR departures).

TEB 5

TAKE-OFF RUNWAYS 1, 6: Climb via heading 040 until leaving 1500 feet, then turn left direct PNJ NDB. Maintain 2000 feet until crossing the PNJ NDB, then climb and maintain 3000 feet. Thence . . . .
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0708/00890TETERBORO_C.PDF

Arrivals on the other hand, are usually sent 100+ miles around NYC airspace. Coming from the South/East, many times we get HTO, BAF, HOU, SAX, COATE.

Okay. Maybe it was EWR I was thinking of. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

So what about the concrete/gates theory?

[flyover]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I've been following the FAA reauthorization bill and the ATC modernization funding in the press for the past year as an objective observer, as I'm an airline employee and general aviation enthusiast.

I have yet to see any information presented that puts the costing of ATC in any rational perspective.

I see lots of factoids and tidbits offered by both sides political camps, lots of emotional drivel, downright stupid public awareness campaigns, and nothing of any substance from anybody.

What I have not seen is a simple balance sheet that shows income and expenses of the services involved. And I've searched for such an item in public records.

Until I can see a comprehensive financial evaluation of the entire system, I have no way to comprehend or put into perspective any of this crap.

Right now, all I can see, is a sophomoric argument being made at a political level.

Somebody, needs to present the big picture. Can anyone here do that? I'd be surprised if anyone could.

Seriously, this is a government bureaucratic/political/tax policy/CYA/propoganda and business as usual situation. What planet do you think you live on?

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by flyover

Seriously, this is a government bureaucratic/political/tax policy/CYA/propoganda and business as usual situation. What planet do you think you live on?

That's why I abhor politics. Instead of uncovering facts and fair solutions...it's all about winning for your team at all costs. I doubt that congress even knows the financial context of the situation.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

That's why I abhor politics. Instead of uncovering facts and fair solutions...it's all about winning for your team at all costs. I doubt that congress even knows the financial context of the situation.

It's a crappy system. Really.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by killbilly

So what about the concrete/gates theory?

You lost me there...do you mean this post?

Originally Posted by killbilly

It would seem to me that if there was MORE concrete spread out a little bit, there would be fewer capacity issues for the airports.

It doesn't matter if you pour concrete on the entire surface of the US. There is a finite number of aircraft that can takeoff and land in an hour and there is a limit to the amount of aircraft that can physically operate in a volume of airspace at the same time. Whatever those numbers may be, logic would dictate that you should not operate at the max limit in order to be able to absorb delays and wx influences.

From a planning point of view. If you were to decide to build a new runway, it will take approx 10 years from drawing the layout to painting the stripes. It would also cost close to $1 Billion dollars.

Airlines could ease congestion withing 6 months by putting larger capacity aircraft (that they have in storage) on the routes instead of the multiple RJ flights. I made the analogy earlier about the City bus system. The CTA systems don't shuttle people around in Honda Accords or Ford Econolines and run every fifteen minutes. The run an effective schedule with high capacity buses. Yet, what the airlines are doing is effectively "undoing" mass transit. They have traded 1 large plane for 3 smaller ones and then complain about the congestion/delays. They have also caused increased mx time, training, and scheduling by a factor of 3. For an industry that is trying to cut every nickel and dime they can, why have they increased the number of operational factors instead of consolidating them?

Is there another transportation industry that is decreasing the size of its vehicles?

Do locomotives pull 10 cars at a time? no
Does the military move mass deployments with C-12s? No, they use the biggest plane they can.
Does the cruise industry use ships that only carry 200 pax at a time? No they carry 3000 at a time.
Do the container ships carry 100 containers at a time? No, they are using the biggest ships they can.

Why don't the above companies do it...because it is inefficient. So why on Earth do the airlines think multiple planes are better than fewer large planes?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Why don't the above companies do it...because it is inefficient. So why on Earth do the airlines think multiple planes are better than fewer large planes?

I know what the retort is going to be -- they offer more flights with smaller planes because the customer wants it.

Well, the customer also wants his plane to leave when it's supposed to and arrive when it's supposed to. And if you make him wait for an hour on each end due to congestion delays, guess what?

He would have been better off taking that one flight on a larger airplane instead of choosing from three on smaller airplanes.

[aviatorrbt]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Vel, the only "elitist" remarks on this issue are the ones you are using against the private jets. You may think you are the town crier, but you sound like the court jester.

I actually agree with you on your above quote....But the problem is not the saturation of corporate jets, as both the FAA and NATCA data show. It overwhelmingly shows the airlines are the main user of the system PERIOD. Why is it saturated? Because the inept airlines keep trying to cram 10 lbs into a 5 pound bag. However, it this case it is more like 15 lbs into a 5 lb bag.

I don't think you ever answered my statements on this the last time:
The airlines want us to pay our share....that's fine. The problem is we are already paying it.

Corp jet fuel is taxed 5.25 times more than the airlines...fact
Corportations are paying millions in property taxes to the local economies... fact http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/la-userfees.html

The federal government subsidizes certain airline markets....fact
"Chicago, for example, gave now-bankrupt ATA Airlines (ATAHQ ) $25 million in subsidies in 2001 to build an employee training center at Midway Airport. United Airlines bagged $300 million from Indianapolis and the state of Indiana in the 1990s to open a now-shuttered maintenance center there. And smaller cities like Wichita and Tupelo, Miss., routinely offer cash, tax breaks, or terminal subsidies to entice carriers to fly to their locales." http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...9/b3952059.htm

Cities waive local taxes to attract airline flights.....fact
"Cleveland plans to invest up to $3.5 million to encourage airlines to add direct flights at Cleveland Hopkins International. The plan calls for spending $595,000 to subsidize advertising and waiving up to $2.75 million in landing fees in the next five years." http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...-checkin_N.htm

Airports waive landing fees for airlines and not for corp jets....fact
The Federal Government has given airlines $15 Billion in bailout funds. http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/f...rline.bailout/

So it would appear that it is the airlines themselves that are getting the "free ride" and it's the "fat cat" airline execs trying to shuffle even MORE of the expense onto someone else.

I was impressed by your research, good job.

[wheelsup]

Just you wait, one of these days we'll have an EZ-Pass system. It'll charge you as you cross the numbers.

ATC should also set up an "express" handling service. People can pay for priority (kinda like how SWA gives money to controllers - yes that was sarcasm...sorta). So the Citation X departing LGA that wants to go RIGHT NOW can hand over the AMEX card and pay a surcharge for express services. Sounds good to me.

Oh, and I think the airlines have been getting tax breaks for a long time now. But they do also pay a lot into the system. I think their complaining is kinda pathetic though. Jeez, raise ticket prices a few bucks here and there and get over it.