Private Jets vs. Airlines

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Are you a socialist? Your way of thinking is absurd and un-American.

So, its absurd to ask people to pay for the services they use? That's called freeloading and what's absurd is that freeloading is being done by the wealthiest.

Sort of like Republican tax cuts.

[ryanmickG]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

So, its absurd to ask people to pay for the services they use? That's called freeloading and what's absurd is that freeloading is being done by the wealthiest.

Sort of like Republican tax cuts.

But you're attacking the "super rich". You think these people know what the hell ATC fees and landing fees are? They are just along for the ride. I will respect your opinion on fractionals like NetJets and FlexJet(even though I dont agree with your opinion) but thats a valid argument that holds water. Making personal attacks on people that have no clue about the ATC fee system is worthless. I would bet if you went to for example Mark Cuban and said "you have to pay an extra $300 per month in ATC user fees to operate your GV" he would probably shrug is shoulders and say "whatever".

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

So, its absurd to ask people to pay for the services they use? That's called freeloading and what's absurd is that freeloading is being done by the wealthiest.

No Sir. What is absurd is that the airlines keep getting "free money" from the government and they want the corp operators to cover their tab. If the airlines were not getting all the "bailout funds" maybe the government wouldn't be needing the increased fees. The FREELOADERS are the AIRLINES.

How many corp operators receive landing fee waivers?
How many corp operators receive discounted fuel tax
How many cities pay advertising fees for corp operators?
How many cities pay corp operators to increase flights?


Anyone else notice that Velo conveniently ignored my statements about who is paying (or not paying)????? Take a look at the current AOPA magazine. It has a nice chart showing the implications of the FAA, Senate and House proposals. It essentially gives MORE breaks to the airlines while giving corporate America the bill. Nice try....face the facts, corp America IS paying.....the airlines just don't want anyone to know the facts.

[E6BAV8R]

Velo, I hope you don't own a car. Why take a car when you can hitch a ride from your neighbor and give him some cash? Call a taxi or ride the city bus? After all if you own your own car you will be not only destroying the environment but congesting the roadways, and damaging those roadways, as well as slowing the commute for everyone else.

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Anyone else notice that Velo conveniently ignored my statements about who is paying (or not paying)?????

Yes and I was about to comment on that as well. I guess he decides which comments to answer based on which one will help him prove his meaningless points with.

Velo, you don't happen to be Michael Moore do you?

[tonyw]

The airlines are taking advantage of the general population's ignorance when they paint bizjets as carrying fat cats around.

I've got friends who have flown bizjets for Fortune 100 companies. Think only C-level execs fly in them?

Nope. Sometimes, it's cheaper to fly their employees on the company jet than to fly commercially and then they do it.

And sometimes, they need to get people to various places very quickly and they don't want to deal with having them go through airports and the nonsense involved there. So they put their employees on those corporate planes.

My friends have flown around employees ranging from software engineers up to CEOs. It's hardly an elitist fat cat thing.

[ryanmickG]

Originally Posted by tonyw

My friends have flown around employees ranging from software engineers up to CEOs. It's hardly an elitist fat cat thing.

TRUE!!

My friends an IT guy for some law firm around here that owns a couple firms around Texas and they fly him all over the place in their Citation.

[jonnyb]

Anyone else notice that Velo conveniently ignored my statements about who is paying (or not paying)????? Take a look at the current AOPA magazine. It has a nice chart showing the implications of the FAA, Senate and House proposals. It essentially gives MORE breaks to the airlines while giving corporate America the bill. Nice try....face the facts, corp America IS paying.....the airlines just don't want anyone to know the facts.

Of course we can see that he is avoiding the questions. He doesn't have an answer to them.

[Mr.Maximus]

With over $15 Billion of taxpayer money given to airlines - the corporate side of flying should start their own media blitz to the public.

"Sick & tired of the lousy service, the delays, the missed connections, the lost luggage and every excuse you hear from the airlines? Well Mr. Taxpayer, want to get even sicker? Your hard earned money that you pay in taxes has subsidized that "superior" service to the tune of over $15 Billion in recent years. In essence, your getting *&*^$'d and not even getting a kiss - now how you feel"?

One has to wonder how many landing fee's $15 Billion would have paid for? One has to wonder how far $15 Billion would have gone towards upgrading the ATC infrastructure for all who participate in aviation?

Legacies have learned that being unprofitable can be very profitable - just get a bailout, dump everyone's pensions and reduce every employee's wages (except mngmt of course) and walla - everything is hunky dory. Corporations have earned the abiltiy to own planes, and know that if they are not profitable, there are no government bailouts or subsidies for them.



Max

[Bigscrb15]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

So, its absurd to ask people to pay for the services they use? That's called freeloading and what's absurd is that freeloading is being done by the wealthiest.

Sort of like Republican tax cuts.

And I thought free loading was like all the low life scum that leach off the welfare system and food stamps and wic and fema and all the other democrat run systems.

[killbilly]

David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association.
“You can have all the concrete you want — it’s when you’re up in the air that you have a space problem,” he says.

To me, this was one of the most compelling points in the article in that it's the opposite of conclusions I've been drawing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't one of the departures from TEB take an aircraft almost DIRECTLY over JFK?

As I've come to understand the problem, especially in the NE, it's the fact that you've got the majority of traffic all trying to use the same few runways. It would seem to me that if there was MORE concrete spread out a little bit, there would be fewer capacity issues for the airports.

Getting the airlines to stop flying 3 RJs for 1 737 is definitely one thing, but I think the general public ought to (I know, I'm being naive here) recognize the benefits of more airports and get over NIMBY. I think the problem has to be solved from both ends, and the airlines need to meet the ground somewhere in the middle, so to speak.

JMHO...

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I didn't say that. If I had enough money to travel in a Citation X, I'd have no problem paying the landing/ATC fees to do it.

It's amazing how many times this faulty logic has been used to put working folks out of jobs. When Clinton decided to tax the luxury yachts "cause the fatcats can afford it" the immediate effect was layoffs of workers that made the boats.

I wouldn't mind attacking or eliminating "rich" people so much if it didn't always mean the rest of us had to live in abject poverty as a result.

You really need to get out and meet some rich folks. Like the guy I spent time with this weekend. A self-made millionaire who built his business from scratch and won't retire because he's afraid no one else can sell enough high-end equipment to keep the company healthy and take care of the employees. There are people like this everywhere. They deserve admiration rather than jealous derision.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Bigscrb15

And I thought free loading was like all the low life scum that leach off the welfare system and food stamps and wic and fema and all the other democrat run systems.

Ooh, research please!

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by flyover

They deserve admiration rather than jealous derision.

Derision? Hardly. They should just have to pay for the services they use. They should pay an equal percentage of their income that I do in taxes. They shouldn't get special tax cuts or advantage from the government because the donate huge sums of money to campaign funds.

Listen, I'll gladly give up graduated income tax is ALL exemptions are removed FOR EVERYONE. Don't bet on it happening, especially under a Republican regime.

[jonnyb]

How many corp operators receive landing fee waivers?
How many corp operators receive discounted fuel tax
How many cities pay advertising fees for corp operators?
How many cities pay corp operators to increase flights?


Anyone else notice that Velo conveniently ignored my statements about who is paying (or not paying)????? Take a look at the current AOPA magazine. It has a nice chart showing the implications of the FAA, Senate and House proposals. It essentially gives MORE breaks to the airlines while giving corporate America the bill. Nice try....face the facts, corp America IS paying.....the airlines just don't want anyone to know the facts.

Hey, guy, remember these? The questions you keep skirting around? I don't think you realize how ignorant you sound. I know you're not stupid just brainwashed.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Derision? Hardly. They should just have to pay for the services they use. They should pay an equal percentage of their income that I do in taxes. They shouldn't get special tax cuts or advantage from the government because the donate huge sums of money to campaign funds.

Listen, I'll gladly give up graduated income tax is ALL exemptions are removed FOR EVERYONE. Don't bet on it happening, especially under a Republican regime.

In 2001 the top 1% of earners paid 34% of the income taxes, the top 50% paid about 99% of all taxes. We are about to break over the point where half of income earners in the US pay NO federal income taxes. How this comes out to the rich getting off easy I don't know. I concede there are trust fund babies like the Kennedys and guys living off their wives like Kerry who pay almost no income tax. But the working rich definitely do.

And how about this? You want to see job creation in the US go even higher than it is now? Eliminate all corporate income taxes. Every time you try to hammer the rich, it's the little guy who feels the most pain.

And here's some fun info about how the poor are doing in the US compared to several years ago and to the European middle class.

• 46 percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
• 80 percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
• Only six percent of poor households are overcrowded; two thirds have more than two rooms per person.
• The typical poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
• Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.
• 97 percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
• 78 percent have a VCR or DVD player.
• 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
• 89 percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjE3NTA4Yjc0NjQxMDA4ZjhlZjczMWM0YWNlM2JhOTg=

And I say eliminate ALL income tax.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't one of the departures from TEB take an aircraft almost DIRECTLY over JFK?

No. It does not. There are no TEB departures that go to the East.

99% of TEB departures use the TEB5 (the only IFR departure SID). Departures off TEB are sent to the West and are held at 1500-2000 MSL until cleared higher by EWR (between EWR departures).

TEB 5

TAKE-OFF RUNWAYS 1, 6: Climb via heading 040 until leaving 1500 feet, then turn left direct PNJ NDB. Maintain 2000 feet until crossing the PNJ NDB, then climb and maintain 3000 feet. Thence . . . .
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0708/00890TETERBORO_C.PDF

Arrivals on the other hand, are usually sent 100+ miles around NYC airspace. Coming from the South/East, many times we get HTO, BAF, HOU, SAX, COATE.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

They shouldn't get special tax cuts or advantage from the government because the donate huge sums of money to campaign funds.

You mean LIKE THE AIRLINES !!!!

Vel, face it. You have no credibility and lack any knowledge of the actual facts. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Welcome to the ignore list. Buh, bye.

[falconvalley]

Fat Cat's...love that title...doesn't even come close to describe the people I flew in Corp...carry a huge burden of taxes as it is. It's expensive to fly outside of the airlines. The reason many companies have airplanes is to maximize their reach and that's a good thing. It's good for economy growth. The airlines just pass the taxes on to the consumer, though most economics professors will tell you it doesn't matter, there's still an exchange. In Corp, you don't have anyone to pass fuel taxes, property taxes, landing fees and such to.

My favorite tax is the homerun ball tax. You catch a home run and enough people want it, the government taxes you whether you sell it or not...

[mrambo]

Why doesn't the FAA use the same system that the highway toll system uses? For passenger cars it's one rate and for vehicles with more than 2 axels it's another. All of the vehicles take about the same amount of time to process (just like teh GV needs the same 5 mile buffer as a 777). And the 777 with 300 passengers on it can afford the fees more than a GV with 5 passengers on it. Typing out that last statement it seems as thought that this bill is aimed at America's top wage earners. I know some airports tax planes on how much they weigh. Maybe this system can be employed by the FAA.

I'm just throwing these ideas out there so you professionals or folks more in the know can credit or shoot down my suggestion(s).

MR

[mrambo]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

My favorite tax is the homerun ball tax. You catch a home run and enough people want it, the government taxes you whether you sell it or not...

I heard about this with that Barry ball. I heard the IRS sent agents to each one of those games so as soon as the person caught the ball their info was taken down so they could PROMPTLY be sent a tax bill. That's crazy!

MR

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Hey, guy, remember these? The questions you keep skirting around? I don't think you realize how ignorant you sound. I know you're not stupid just brainwashed.

Its because your questions are immaterial to the topic at hand. The topic is why don't corporate fatcats pay to use the ATC system? Just pay for the services you use. If you want to fly the IT guys to East Slapass, Arkansas, you won't be paying much. The boss wants to go to LAX for a haircut, pony up.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by flyover

In 2001 the top 1% of earners paid 34% of the income taxes, the top 50% paid about 99% of all taxes....And I say eliminate ALL income tax.

Your first statement is disingenuous. Your typical airline Captain is among the top 1% of earners. However, the bizjet crowd pays less in taxes than I do.

I do agree with your second point, though you know the "gubbmint" is gonna get their pound of flesh from somewhere.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Its because your questions are immaterial to the topic at hand. The topic is why don't corporate fatcats pay to use the ATC system? Just pay for the services you use. If you want to fly the IT guys to East Slapass, Arkansas, you won't be paying much. The boss wants to go to LAX for a haircut, pony up.

Yeah, that's what I thought. It's very obvious that you have been conditioned how to think. I feel sorry for you.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Yeah, that's what I thought. It's very obvious that you have been conditioned how to think. I feel sorry for you.

As have you, my friend. Obviously, your interest is in seeing YOUR boss not getting an ATC bill and deciding to sell the jet.