Hired by airline with low hours? Watch out!

[bike21]

I extracted this from another thread since it wasn't exactly the right context within the thread. Any folks out there getting picked up by regionals with <500 hours or so watch out when it comes to upgrade time....

*****************

Scenario - you are hired at XYZ Airline with very low hours. i.e. you are not even CLOSE to FAA ATP minimums. With me so far? Good. So, you stay with XYZ Airline until you have the required total time and go to upgrade. Great!

But hold on there kiddo...you waltz into your checkride ready to go, but the DE upon reviewing your 8710 says, "you are not qualified to be a Captain with XYZ Airlines". Uh-oh!! Big embarrassment, six weeks of ground school and sim wasted right? Wrong! Because good ol' bike21 is gonna save your day right now.

Here is what you do.

The requirement people seem to be getting tripped up on is the night PIC and cross country requirement as PIC. (25 hours and 100 hours) What you need to do as SIC before the flight, is agree with your Captain that you will be ACTING as PIC for this leg and will be essentially making all the decisions. You then keep a separate log of when these legs occurred so you can later prove to the FAA that you are indeed ready for the ATP checkride.

And I suppose even the 250 hours as PIC could theoretically bite you in the arse too.

Here is the section out of the FARs...

250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include

1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
2. 25 hr. of night flight time

NOTE: Not more than 100 hr. of the total aeronautical experience requirements may be obtained in a flight simulator or a flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the experience was obtained in a course conducted under FAR Part 142.

Basically just make sure you meet the mins! If you hardly instruct (CFIs quit complaining that you HAD to instruct for six months, oh so agonizing...ok that is another for another thread) and get hired with low hours i.e. 300-500 hours, use caution!

****disclaimers****
#1 No this wasn't me, cause I already had ATP mins before I got hired on
#2 I cannot tell you exactly where I got this information. But it is happening.

[Bumblebee]

You are not PIC under part 121 unless you are the Captain. Even if he/she agrees to let you ACT as PIC, you are not unless you sign for the aircraft. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

[bike21]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

You are not PIC under part 121 unless you are the Captain. Even if he/she agrees to let you ACT as PIC, you are not unless you sign for the aircraft. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

You are totally right. This is just a formality for being able to log the time if you didn't get it CFIing, towing banners, flying boxes all that stuff.

[jtrain609]

OOORRRR you could get a waiver. There's a waiver for this kinda stuff.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

OOORRRR you could get a waiver. There's a waiver for this kinda stuff.

I was not aware of such a waiver. Do tell!

[jtrain609]

They've got one here at Express, couldn't tell you much about it 'cause I won't need it, what with getting hired at such high time

[bike21]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

...what with getting hired at such high time

[Mr.Maximus]

Originally Posted by bike21

You are totally right. This is just a formality for being able to log the time if you didn't get it CFIing, towing banners, flying boxes all that stuff.

Is this dejavu? Pearl, you can NOT log 121 PIC time unless (a) your are typed in the aircraft if a type rating is required and (b) the operator has designated you as the PIC on the dispatch release.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many of the youngins' with SJS are trying to find every way under the sun to skirt the rules. Actually, all you guys should log PIC everytime your in the aircraft. Your "upgrade" will go something like this:

DE: Hello, license, medical and logbooks please.

Youngin': Here ya go

DE: I see you got your PIC time in a (fill in the blank) RJ.

Youngin': Yessireee

DE: Where's the type rating for said RJ? It's not on your license.

Youngin': Well BillyBob on XYZ website said if the CA said I was the big
cheese on the flightdeck - I could log PIC time.

DE: Youngin' - your an idiot. Get out of my office and you better hope
that when you actually have earned the requirements
for upgrade - you don't get me as your DE.

Youngin': But, but........................mommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Sheesh



Max

[FlyChicaga]

I had this happen to me. It wasn't an issue at all. There is a waiver available for this situation.

[amorris311]

the waiver must have read matt is the man and far's dont mean anything to him.

[surreal1221]

How else are FO's suppose to get upgraded then?

Even if they have the hours required for an ATP. . .they still lack the PIC time (since they were only FO's), correct?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

How else are FO's suppose to get upgraded then?

Even if they have the hours required for an ATP. . .they still lack the PIC time (since they were only FO's), correct?

It's not time in type, it's just PIC time in anything.

(BTW I've been meaning to call, I just haven't had a chance to with how busy training has been. Ride is soon, and then I'll have a chance to give you a ring)

[Baradium]

It's not that you log this as PIC time. It's that this time counts towards the PIC requirement.

[Mr.Maximus]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

How else are FO's suppose to get upgraded then?

Even if they have the hours required for an ATP. . .they still lack the PIC time (since they were only FO's), correct?

My how times have changed. You............................nevermind.



Max

[mhcasey]

What the heck? What are people doing between 40 hours for PPL and 250 for CPL? Practicing landings at the home airport during day VFR conditions for 200 hours?

On a related note, does this mean that my student pilots can start logging PIC as long as we agree before the flight that they are going to be making the major decisions?

[Rocketman99]

Am I missing something? I thought that for the purposes of getting ratings and the like the whole PIC thing was simply sole manipulator of the controls? Tht being said, any leg as a 121 FO when you flew the leg could be counted for making the required hours. Unles something has changed in the past couple years I'm pretty sure that covers it???

[Mr.Maximus]

TITLE 14--AERONAUTICS AND SPACE

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
(CONTINUED)

PART 121--OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL
OPERATIONS--Table of Contents

Subpart M--Airman and Crewmember Requirements

Sec. 121.385 Composition of flight crew.

(a) No certificate holder may operate an airplane with less than the
minimum flight crew in the airworthiness certificate or the airplane
Flight Manual approved for that type airplane and required by this part
for the kind of operation being conducted.
(b) In any case in which this part requires the performance of two
or more functions for which an airman certificate is necessary, that
requirement is not satisfied by the performance of multiple functions at
the same time by one airman.
(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder
shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in
command

Guess you are missing something.



Max

[Tram]

Wow.. Kids are upgrading these days without the required night time hours?

Wow...

[bike21]

Originally Posted by Mr.Maximus

Is this dejavu? Pearl, you can NOT log 121 PIC time unless (a) your are typed in the aircraft if a type rating is required and (b) the operator has designated you as the PIC on the dispatch release.

Max

Ok, let me clarify a couple of things for you.

1) In my original post I never said log it (sorry I made mention in a subsequent post). If you read carefully you will see I said to keep a separate record. You are not logging, you are only 'acting' (and I use that term loosely) PIC for certain legs to meet the hour requirement.

2) I ain't no youngin' and I certainly don't have SJS

Originally Posted by Baradium

It's not that you log this as PIC time. It's that this time counts towards the PIC requirement.

Thank you for reading it properly.

Originally Posted by Tram

Wow.. Kids are upgrading these days without the required night time hours?

Wow...

Yep, kinda scary. I do not condone ultra low timers, but just a heads up for those that are already there and didn't learn through the wise ways of the JC crowd

[USMC-SGT]

or....as it was said earlier just cfi or something and get the 25 and 100...I think I had that before I was done with my ratings...its not too hard to achieve

[bike21]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

or....as it was said earlier just cfi or something and get the 25 and 100...I think I had that before I was done with my ratings...its not too hard to achieve

You certainly wouldn't think so

edit to add:

A) I was astonished when I heard this directly from the person who it happened to!

B) I was even more astonished to learn that it happens more than we think!!!

[surreal1221]

The 100 hr XC time requirement, I see it doesn't specify a distance requirement. . .so that it simply falls under the definition of XC from part 61.1 (a landing at an airport other than the departure airport).

Looks like I won't have this same problem - only 11.5 shy XC time wise, and 6.1 shy night time wise.

Originally Posted by Mr.Maximus

My how times have changed. You............................nevermind.



Max

Jtrain answered my question, sans any sarcasm. You should try it.

I was under the impression that the ATP time requirements, would have to be done in a 121(or 135) environment. Hence my wondering how in the world a NON-PIC would get the 100/25. But now I know, it's just overall PIC. . .not time in type.

Originally Posted by jtrain609

It's not time in type, it's just PIC time in anything.

(BTW I've been meaning to call, I just haven't had a chance to with how busy training has been. Ride is soon, and then I'll have a chance to give you a ring)

no problem, just surprise the hell out of me one of these days.

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

The 100 hr XC time requirement, I see it doesn't specify a distance requirement. . .so that it simply falls under the definition of XC from part 61.1 (a landing at an airport other than the departure airport).

Wrong!

§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.


(3) Cross-country time means—


(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

For the ATP, the only exception is that you don't have to land. But you have to have the 50nm.

Mike

[surreal1221]

I see, thanks.

Then in that regard. . .I'm 44.2 hours shy, lol.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

How else are FO's suppose to get upgraded then?

Even if they have the hours required for an ATP. . .they still lack the PIC time (since they were only FO's), correct?

Does the ATP require PIC time or just raw flight time? If its just hours, then the SIC time would suffice. We had a guy who hired on in the "olden" days with just a Commercial ticket. He ended up getting his ATP and upgrade with no problem, so I always assumed the ATP only required 1500 hours. When I got mine, it was all military time, over half of which was Aircraft Commander, so I never really paid attention to the requirements.