Use MESA as a time-building tool?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by 777forever

If you're flying the 170 or 175 for Republic, I'd say you have very good job security for the next several years

I beg to differ.

"Job security" and "next few years" are contradictory.

Unless you 'own the code', don't fall into the false impression of job security.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Seggy

I
Lloyd and Bob, do you know how many people said I should go to Colgan, get some Turbine time under me and go somewhere else after three months and go to XJET. They said QOL is everything, go get based in EWR and live 30 minutes from there on the beach.

Well....My company which I have been with twenty months, which I will be in the top 20 percent by the end of the year seniority wise, will be opening a base in EWR. Continental is taking flying away from you guys at XJET and giving it to us. If I did go to EWR for XJET, were would that leave me? Going to XJET would have been the rational thing for me to do a year and a half ago, but in the end it would have hurt my career.

So, what you're saying is that Colgan has worked for you just fine. But, it might not be the solution for everybody.

How can we really rationalize our decision to go to a "regional" when bases open, close, are downsized, expand, or guys get furloughed.

How can we really rationalize our decision to go to a major when bases open, close, are downsized, expand, or guys get furloughed?

We are doing a disservice to those trying to pick an airline telling them to pick a regional on a criteria of issues such as QOL, pay, current upgrade time and aircraft!

I love you like a brother, Mark, but that's nonsense! QOL is an important thing.

If a pilot lives in Los Angeles, has a family, a wife with a job, and a house, why would he be wrong for not choosing to fly for an east-coast airline? To him, QOL is a HUGE issue!

Has my QOL really been THAT bad at Colgan, I don't think so. I am going to enjoy 16 days off next month with 116 hours of flying, getting that TPIC. Is that bad?

Again, it has worked for YOU. For somebody that wants/needs to commute, the airline might not be the best choice!

Seriously, to those who want to 'settle' at a 'regional'. Be CAREFUL. Like Doug said, job security in the airline industry is laughable at best. Job security at a regional is insane.

Just because somebody might want to work for a good regional, doesn't mean that they want to settle at one.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by iwareboy

As much as I love to hear the praises of XJET, this thread had drifted way off the original intent... which is basically asking if it's a valid idea to use Mesa to get free/paid training on the CRJ, and the drop them when the first opportunity arises at a better airline, AKA xjet or skyw.

Don't bet on jumping ship too soon! Mesa has a training clause that states if you leave before your year of probation is up you must reimburse Mesa for all your training expenses. The more the year progresses the less the reimbursment. The same goes if you piss of the chief pilot and the company and they ####can you. Hope you have a fat wad of cash ready!

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

So, what you're saying is that Colgan has worked for you just fine. But, it might not be the solution for everybody.

Yes up to this point is has worked greatly for me. I am lucky it has. Colgan is not right for everybody much like flying for Comair wouldn't be right for me.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

How can we really rationalize our decision to go to a major when bases open, close, are downsized, expand, or guys get furloughed?

Because, like Doug said, in the long run majors have provided more job security than their outsourced companies. United and American will be in ORD as long as they stay in business, same thing for Delta in ATL.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I love you like a brother, Mark, but that's nonsense! QOL is an important thing.

If a pilot lives in Los Angeles, has a family, a wife with a job, and a house, why would he be wrong for not choosing to fly for an east-coast airline? To him, QOL is a HUGE issue!

Ok so a few years ago that pilot decided to go to ASA because they had an LAX base over XJET which was an 'east-coast' airline. Guess what, he is commuting to ATL rather than being based in LAX for XJET. There was a poster on here on another thread that went to Comair to live in base. Well, they closed that base.

Post 25 on this thread...

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...e-oh-nooo.html

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Again, it has worked for YOU. For somebody that wants/needs to commute, the airline might not be the best choice!

Agreed so far it has worked for me. I'm just bringing my points to the table. For a young guy who is flexiable, be willing to commute, be willing to go to an airline were QOL might not be as great as another regional to advance your career.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Just because somebody might want to work for a good regional, doesn't mean that they want to settle at one.

True, but there are a lot that are. NOTHING wrong with that. Just be careful with the beds we make.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by 777forever

If you're flying the 170 or 175 for Republic, I'd say you have very good job security for the next several years

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I beg to differ.

"Job security" and "next few years" are contradictory.

Unless you 'own the code', don't fall into the false impression of job security.

What happens when the Legacy determine its cheaper to let the "feeders" fun the 170/175/190 instead of them? The Legacy don't move anyone up (or even furlough pilots) and pass the workload back to the "feeders".

Wait until "feeders" start flying the CRJ-1000 I think it might already be in the works.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

What happens when the Legacy determine its cheaper to let the "feeders" fun the 170/175/190 instead of them? The Legacy don't move anyone up (or even furlough pilots) and pass the workload back to the "feeders".

Wait until "feeders" start flying the CRJ-1000 I think it might already be in the works.

Hopefully the line in the sand has already been drawn with that one. USAIRWAYS MAINLINE getting the E-190 was the first test. Others will follow.

Plus there aren't to many furloughed pilots left at the legacies. Within a year I think ALL majors (except for AA will start hiring). AA will start once the TWA guys lose their recall rights.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

What happens when the Legacy determine its cheaper to let the "feeders" fun the 170/175/190 instead of them? The Legacy don't move anyone up (or even furlough pilots) and pass the workload back to the "feeders".

Wait until "feeders" start flying the CRJ-1000 I think it might already be in the works.

We already know its cheaper to let the starry eyed youngins fly the E-jets. The MECs at the legacies can't allow any more scope relief or they will be flying the 190s. The Airways guys kept the 190's in house and CAL pilots still fly any jet with more than 50 seats. Lets hope it stays that way.

[amorris311]

i thought the twa guys lost it starting at the beginning of next year.

[OldTownPilot]

Dude segs, great minds think alike

Good luck on your type ride. I take that back, you dont need it. Go kick its rear end tonight.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by amorris311

i thought the twa guys lost it starting at the beginning of next year.

Could be! Then ALL legacies will be hiring within a year!

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Dude segs, great minds think alike

Good luck on your type ride. I take that back, you dont need it. Go kick its rear end tonight.

HAHAHA, yep!

I'll let you know how it goes!

[jtrain609]

What we need to have happen is a giant staple job.

Every single jet regional needs to get attached to it's mainline carrier. Pinnacle needs to be merged onto the Northwest seniority list. Express Jet needs to get attached to the bottom of CAL's list, etc. etc.

Until the mainline guys put the jets back at mainline we're going to see the continued errosion of this career. Suck it up, take the crappy pay rates and at least put them up at the mainline. At this point it the mainline guys should be willing to give up A LOT to make this happen, because it means that the mainline guys still stop losing their mainline routes to regional carriers.

Keep it in house when it's a jet.

[amorris311]

continental was stupid when they sold off coex.

[jtrain609]

Naw Continental was stupid when they gave those 69 planes to CHQ. Word on the street is that Express Jet is STILL covering for those guys and mainline gave Express Jet back a few planes because CHQ has botched the operation so badly.

CAL can still remove another 69 planes in January from Express Jet, but as somebody said on another forum, "Even if CAL has any more bullets left, they might not have another foot left to shoot after the CHQ disaster."

[amorris311]

still think that continental was stupid for selling coex off. xjt has a great business plan and i hope that it all works out for them and you. i do no tthink that you will lose another 69 planes. if you do well then things will change. like it has been said many times before this industry changes with the wind.

[H46Bubba]

CHQ is also having a hard time with keeping those 200's maintained. They're all ex Indy Air/ACA 200's. With the 200 no longer in production and having started flying them really late in the game, parts are scarce. They call us four to six times a day loking for parts on a daily basis. They're also calling all the other 200 operators as well PSA, Pinnacle, ASA, AWAC and so on. I forsee them being like Freedom's Dash-8 operation; lasting about a year and then disappering. Someone else will fill the void.

[jtrain609]

The work will go back to Express Jet if that happens, a costly mistake for CAL that they won't make again.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Someone in this thread said that MESA wants to be used by low time pilots to time build.

But, I think that is dangerous for the profession. Why, well because those that go there to time build probably won't press for Mesa to be the next XJT in terms of pay, contract, QOL etc.

They'd be willing to maybe work longer hours, be abused, break regs and be "screw scheduling's" bitch, just to build time and get out.

And that I think is bad over all!

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Every single jet regional needs to get attached to it's mainline carrier. Pinnacle needs to be merged onto the Northwest seniority list. Express Jet needs to get attached to the bottom of CAL's list, etc. etc.

Not quite following...

Why does Pinnacle get "merged" with the list at NW... and XJT'rs get stapled to the bottom at CAL?

Quite frankly... I firmly believe that MANY regional folks would not go for that option anyway. There are many regional guys that have WAY more seniority than the CAL guys. IMO stapleing to the bottom is not even remotely going to solve the "regional" woes.

Besides... what would you do with the likes of CHQ/Republic, SkyWest, Mesa, etc... who all fly for multiple carriers?

Bob

[jtrain609]

Because Pinnacles does the majority of their contract flying for Northwest, as Express does for CAL.

You put up a fence for 10 years and that would preserve your relative senority until all the kinks get worked out.

Doing this would protect the jobs at mainline, which is where these routes should be. Houston to Toronto? Is that REALLY something for a "regional" jet to fly? And if the mainline wants to run smaller jets with more frequency then great! But it'd prevent us from being #####d out and would stop compitition between regionals fighting for the scraps of the big carriers.

What do you with CHQ? SkywesT? Mesa? I dunno, burn em at the stake?

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Because Pinnacles does the majority of their contract flying for Northwest, as Express does for CAL.

Oh, I get your logic as to why they should be integrated... I was just wondering why you thought Pinnacle should be "merged" but XJT should be "stapled to the bottom"?

Bob

[mtsu_av8er]

BTW, Mark . . . if QOL, pay, bases, etc aren't so important, why should a single pilot at Colgan want ALPA representation? If what you're saying is true, we (pilots) should simply go to a regional and accept what we get. After all, it's all about career progression. Get in, get out.

Is that what you were saying?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Oh, I get your logic as to why they should be integrated... I was just wondering why you thought Pinnacle should be "merged" but XJT should be "stapled to the bottom"?

Bob

Whoops, if I used two different things to describe what I think should happen then I misspoke. I think both should be stapled to the bottom of the lists.

The deal with having a fence up is that nobody would see that it happened for 10 years and then you could have some movement up and down. But the point being get it all on the same list.

[H46Bubba]

But the big question is...would these regionals want to be incorporated into mainline? You have stockholders of both parties to please before you can do such a task as well as the other labor parties and union workers.

[jtrain609]

Hey I'm not talking about the mechanics of how to make it happen, I'm just talkin' about how to stop the slide!