Use MESA as a time-building tool?

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Jim, I got A LOT of respect for ExpressJet, the pilot group, and management there. I wish you guys the best, just be careful though. Ten years ago Comair and Mesaba had the best benefits, QOL, work rules, and time off. Twenty years ago it was WestAir and Bar Harbor Airways.

The 'era of good feeling' could last forever or it could be gone tomorrow. The going is good now and I hope that the branded flying takes off for you guys, BUT crap could hit the fan tomorrow.

This industry is a crapshoot. The flying in EWR could be taken away from you tomorrow. The mainline guys are fighting tooth and nail to get this fee for departure crap taken away from the regional feed business models (as they should).

It is different to love your job and to be cautiously optimistic. I love my job, but am VERY cautious about the future.

Seggy, you are absolutely 100% correct. There is every possiblilty that I could wake up tomorrow and wonder what the hell happened to that company that used to exist called ExpressJet. Independence anyone? Pan Am? Braniff? In fact, if things go a well as they are going now for ExpressJet for the next five years, I will consider it no small miracle.

In the meantime, I will continue to whenever I hear someone talk about how bad my job 'sucks'.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Seggy, you are absolutely 100% correct. There is every possiblilty that I could wake up tomorrow and wonder what the hell happened to that company that used to exist called ExpressJet. Independence anyone? Pan Am? Braniff? In fact, if things go a well as they are going now for ExpressJet for the next five years, I will consider it no small miracle.

In the meantime, I will continue to whenever I hear someone talk about how bad my job 'sucks'.

Ok, I got what you are saying.

Like you, I LOVE my job. Colgan hasn't been that bad. My first month as a captain I will fly 118 hours with 17 days off. It ticks me off to no end when people b!TCH and moan about flying, which is my passion, ESPECIALLY when they are professional pilots.

Seriously though, ALL regionals do SUCK. We are no more than outsourced workers. Really there is no difference between us and a worker working DELL and MAC Customer Support in India.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Jim, I got A LOT of respect for ExpressJet, the pilot group, and management there. I wish you guys the best, just be careful though. Ten years ago Comair and Mesaba had the best benefits, QOL, work rules, and time off. Twenty years ago it was WestAir and Bar Harbor Airways.

The 'era of good feeling' could last forever or it could be gone tomorrow. The going is good now and I hope that the branded flying takes off for you guys, BUT crap could hit the fan tomorrow.

This industry is a crapshoot. The flying in EWR could be taken away from you tomorrow. The mainline guys are fighting tooth and nail to get this fee for departure crap taken away from the regional feed business models (as they should).

It is different to love your job and to be cautiously optimistic. I love my job, but am VERY cautious about the future.

Well said Seggy.

Just as Doug, yourself, and other have said, the best airline of today could be the red headed stepchild of tomorrow.

[CapnJim]

OK Seggy, there I gotta disagree with ya.

SOME regionals suck. But by no means to ALL regionals suck.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Just as Doug, yourself, and other have said, the best airline of today could be the red headed stepchild of tomorrow.

And thus is true for the "majors" as well... It's a crapshoot no matter where you go in this industry... at least on the pax 121 side.

Bob
PS: Oh yeah... I get a profit sharing check every year too... 'cuz... you know... we make a profit... and my "Regional that sucks less than other Regionals" shares that profit with their employees.

[CapnJim]

You know, to be fair, if you're going to put all regionals on a 'suck scale', I think it only fair to do the same thing with the majors and then compare the two. It should come as no surprise that absolutely no one working for XJT would willingly go work for NWA, so I suppose that if the regional airline XJT sucks, then the major airline NWA sucks worse.

Ah, so much for the 'suck scale'.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

OK Seggy, there I gotta disagree with ya.

SOME regionals suck. But by no means to ALL regionals suck.

I think this is the point were I say we will agree to disagree.

Think about the CONCEPT of regionals. We are outsourced workers. Doesn't matter if we are the top outsourced workers or the bottom, we are OUTSOURCED labor working for a 'daddy'.

Let us pretend we are in India. Doesn't matter if we are working for Grade A Customer Support Service in New Delhi with great benefits or Grade Z Customer Support Service Center. The concept is still there. It sucks.

The thing about ExpressJet is that they are smart enough and ballsy enough to try to get a step ahead with the branded flying, charter division, as well as other business ventures such as your winery and paint shops. So they are better and could get away from their regional pay for fee departure scheme and go their own, which I hope you guys do.

PS-You get my PM about my Party on the 22nd? It is in the Meet and Greet Section.

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

And thus is true for the "majors" as well... It's a crapshoot no matter where you go in this industry... at least on the pax 121 side.

Bob
PS: Oh yeah... I get a profit sharing check every year too... 'cuz... you know... we make a profit... and my "Regional that sucks less than other Regionals" shares that profit with their employees.

Bob, this whole industry is a crapshoot, we NEVER know what will happen with our companies, NEVER.

It cracks me up when guys try to rationalize what 'regional' to go to. I think the best one is, whichever one hires you first.

[Doug Taylor]

My absolute best advice is if your heart is set on the part 121 passenger business, get to a carrier high on the food chain.

If you're flying contract work under someone else's code, that work can evaporate very quickly. Not that the 'brand names' like Delta, United, American, SWA, Continental, JetBlue, etc are guaranteed to be around when you're looking to retire, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't count on even the best regional continually maintaining every single one of their contracts.

Unfortunately, the 'brand holders' don't care as much about feed "quality" than they do feed "cost". Because they always have the ace in the hole of saying, "We're sorry ma'am, that was Peachtree Air d/b/a Quantum Express but here's a travel voucher".

My opinion only!

If you like flying for an airline that feeds FDX, I'd highly suggest applying for FDX as you never know what happens when another carrier wants to compete for the route you're flying as the feed contract comes due.

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by Seggy

I think this is the point were I say we will agree to disagree.

Think about the CONCEPT of regionals. We are outsourced workers. Doesn't matter if we are the top outsourced workers or the bottom, we are OUTSOURCED labor working for a 'daddy'.

Let us pretend we are in India. Doesn't matter if we are working for Grade A Customer Support Service in New Delhi with great benefits or Grade Z Customer Support Service Center. The concept is still there. It sucks.

The thing about ExpressJet is that they are smart enough and ballsy enough to try to get a step ahead with the branded flying, charter division, as well as other business ventures such as your winery and paint shops. So they are better and could get away from their regional pay for fee departure scheme and go their own, which I hope you guys do.

PS-You get my PM about my Party on the 22nd? It is in the Meet and Greet Section.

I see your point, but I contend that the disparity between concept and execution are so disparate as to render the former irrelevant. I'm happy. I consider myself lucky to be where I'm at. But yes, the future is a big question mark. It's just hard for me to swallow someone telling me my job sucks when I enjoy the benefits and QOL that I do. You can find plenty of Mesa and Mesaba pilots who will say that their job sucks, but not very many XJetters.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

And thus is true for the "majors" as well... It's a crapshoot no matter where you go in this industry... at least on the pax 121 side.

Originally Posted by Seggy

Bob, this whole industry is a crapshoot, we NEVER know what will happen with our companies, NEVER.

Um... I thought I just basically said exactly that...

Originally Posted by Seggy

It cracks me up when guys try to rationalize what 'regional' to go to. I think the best one is, whichever one hires you first.

Worked for me... (thank goodness)

Bob

[SmitteyB]

Mesa wants you to use them as a timebuilding tool! They can get away with you not fighting Crew Scheduling and complaining aobut wages. They want you to timebuild with them!

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

Mesa wants you to use them as a timebuilding tool! They can get away with you not fighting Crew Scheduling and complaining aobut wages. They want you to timebuild with them!

That's probably true.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Heh.

I hold 16 days off a month, every month, fly free first class to Tokyo, have a 401k match at 5%, full benefits, better reserve rules than mainline, a better bid system than malinline, make enough money to live comfortaby in a very cool, very expensive apartment in trendy Hoboken (Oh, by the way, my pay is higher than a 1st year CAL FO flying a 767...) and I enjoy a work group whose morale is higher than any legacy carrier I can think of. No, I don't think this 'sucks' by any measure.

Further, since I live in base and hold day trips (sleeping in my own bed every night is wonderful), I fly with plenty of people who have made ExpressJet a career. These guys typically drive luxury automobiles, have nice houses in the Poconos, and can afford to send their kids to private schools and take their wives to Paris during their 4 weeks of vacation. Something tells me they don't really think it 'sucks' either.

I am continually amused by people who are incapable of separating a slipshod operation like Mesa from a industry-leading company like ExpressJet on the grounds that they equipment they operate is externally similar. I find it difficult to get angry at these people, however, as it is painfully obvious that they are speaking from a standpoint of complete and utter ignorance. It must 'suck' to be them.

~

John, I think you will soon find that you were not owned by any stretch of the imagination. Welcome to the Monkey House (re: Vonnegut).

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

Hey guys, thanks for reminding me that the regional airline I work for "sucks". I need to be reminded because things keep happening that make me think otherwise.

Early on when I had to ask a captain what a "stand-up" was and got the answer, I didn't think my company sucked. I still haven't done one after a couple months on line. I haven't even seen on in open time.

When I was on reserve for less than a month I didn't think my company sucked.

When I was drinking a cerveza in Mexico on Cinco de Mayo on an overnight, I didn't think my company sucked.

When more money appeared in my bank account than with anything I've ever done before, I didn't think my company sucked.

When I asked for the last 2 days of June off and they gave me the last 5 (with 15 days off in the month), I didn't think my company sucked.

When I was able to trade up and build a money-making line for myself worth 99:50 in July, I didn't think my company sucked. What's PBS?

The times Newark has been all fouled up and I'm sitting out on the ramp making money while waiting to take off, I didn't think my company sucked.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that for someone who went from flying a 1,764-lb GA plane in a flight instructing job to flying for a regional, ExpressJet doesn't suck. It's awesome, actually.

Mike

This is what I'm talking about!

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by Seggy

PS-You get my PM about my Party on the 22nd? It is in the Meet and Greet Section.

I did get it! Unfortunately I'm going to be in AUS that weekend, but man, thanks for the invite!

[bike21]

Gotta agree with CapnJim here - not all regionals SUCK. I mean talk to a lot of mainline United guys. How happy are they right now? And NWA?

Unfortunately our profession has too many guys/gals that will NEVER be happy no matter what the circumstances are. I know too many of them, used to supervise such a person and they are EVER the pessimist. Those kind of folks will always bring us down. Both in the cockpit and professionally.

While this industy needs vast improvement, b*tching about it and doing nothing doesn't cut it. Not singling anyone out here, cause Seggy, myself, and many others work hard with trying to actually make improvements.

I am happy at my company right now (relatively measured) but will continue to work to improve the condtions here and also make moves to make the big picture for the entire industry to prosper.

Saying every regional sucks - I just can't buy it.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

Mesa wants you to use them as a timebuilding tool! They can get away with you not fighting Crew Scheduling and complaining aobut wages. They want you to timebuild with them!

Smitster...

Totally agree with you on that one... didn't really think about it that way until you said that.

Bob

[Nick]

This thread is largely a glass half full vs. glass half empty debate.

You can say all the regionals suck, some are good, or some suck less than others but it all means the same thing.

Besides -- for people who switch careers in their 40s or 50s and are a captain at a good/less sucky regional, nothing might suck as much as going to a major airline (generally considered better, right?) and having the low QOL and low pay of a new-hire only to have just a few years for it to build up again.

Sure, FDX and UPS new-hire first and second year pay averaged together is probably better than regional CA pay but they are somewhat exceptions compared to new-hire pay at CAL for example.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Seggy

It cracks me up when guys try to rationalize what 'regional' to go to. I think the best one is, whichever one hires you first.

I don't know if I can agree with that, Mark . . . some people might choose different regionals based on different reasons.I think that a lot of regional pilots are bitter and miserable because they DID simply go to the first regional that hired them.Like I tell people - stop, breath, enjoy the ride. Do what works for YOU!If I'd gone to the first regional that offered, I'd have been an unemployed Regions guy, scrambling to find the next regional that answered.Not cool.

[CapnJim]

Working for a major and saying that ExpressJet 'just sucks less' than Mesa is like eating at Ruth's Chris and then saying that Sardi's 'just sucks less' than Taco Bell.

Can a thing be both technically correct and utterly idiotic? I think this thread proves that the answer is an uneqivocal 'yes!'

[av8sean]

As much as I love to hear the praises of XJET, this thread had drifted way off the original intent... which is basically asking if it's a valid idea to use Mesa to get free/paid training on the CRJ, and the drop them when the first opportunity arises at a better airline, AKA xjet or skyw.

Originally Posted by Nick

This thread is largely a glass half full vs. glass half empty debate.

You can say all the regionals suck, some are good, or some suck less than others but it all means the same thing.

Besides -- for people who switch careers in their 40s or 50s and are a captain at a good/less sucky regional, nothing might suck as much as going to a major airline (generally considered better, right?) and having the low QOL and low pay of a new-hire only to have just a few years for it to build up again.

Sure, FDX and UPS new-hire first and second year pay averaged together is probably better than regional CA pay but they are somewhat exceptions compared to new-hire pay at CAL for example.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by iwareboy

As much as I love to hear the praises of XJET, this thread had drifted way off the original intent... which is basically asking if it's a valid idea to use Mesa to get free/paid training on the CRJ, and the drop them when the first opportunity arises at a better airline, AKA xjet or skyw.

I agree that there's been drift... but... actually... there's a few good gems in this thread that have to do with your question...

Here's a few:

Originally Posted by Brand X

I heard they have a high washout rate. You have to be careful and not washout in training and have the record follow you around the rest of your career, especially if Mesa is your first "airline" job.

Originally Posted by Nick

I don't think the decision is as much about washout rates and time building as it is, do you want to live with 8 days off on reserve doing standup overnights constantly when there are quality companies hiring at 500 to 1000TT?

Originally Posted by iwareboy

I realize Mesa is a crap airline...

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Flying an RJ is a JOB (and should be treated as such) not a time building experience. (except for TPIC to go to a major.)

Originally Posted by CRoper

I say if you can get the job, it's a great way to build time. Just be prepared to enter the suck.

Originally Posted by CRoper

I would avoid there as well.

(my CFI) told me... that as long as I didn't go to mesa I would be fine. That (and all the other storys you always here) is enough for me to know. Big fat no to Mesa! LoL.

Originally Posted by bike21

Even though it is a better move, making a lateral move at the regionals has gotta suck. I try to tell all the CFIs I know to wait for SKYW or a better place like it first. Don't wanna do regional first year twice!!

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

Mesa wants you to use them as a timebuilding tool! They can get away with you not fighting Crew Scheduling and complaining aobut wages. They want you to timebuild with them!

Bob

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Flying an RJ is a JOB (and should be treated as such) not a time building experience. (except for TPIC to go to a major.)

Yep, that about sums it up.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

I see your point, but I contend that the disparity between concept and execution are so disparate as to render the former irrelevant.

I guess we will agree to disagree. I think concept and execution should be tied together.

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Worked for me... (thank goodness)

Bob

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I don't know if I can agree with that, Mark . . . some people might choose different regionals based on different reasons.I think that a lot of regional pilots are bitter and miserable because they DID simply go to the first regional that hired them.Like I tell people - stop, breath, enjoy the ride. Do what works for YOU!If I'd gone to the first regional that offered, I'd have been an unemployed Regions guy, scrambling to find the next regional that answered.Not cool.

Lloyd and Bob, do you know how many people said I should go to Colgan, get some Turbine time under me and go somewhere else after three months and go to XJET. They said QOL is everything, go get based in EWR and live 30 minutes from there on the beach.

Well....My company which I have been with twenty months, which I will be in the top 20 percent by the end of the year seniority wise, will be opening a base in EWR. Continental is taking flying away from you guys at XJET and giving it to us. If I did go to EWR for XJET, were would that leave me? Going to XJET would have been the rational thing for me to do a year and a half ago, but in the end it would have hurt my career.

Talk to the XJET guys out of CLE. They aren't to happy with what is going on. They are losing about $10,000-$20,000 grand a year because of the contract no? NO regional is perfect. XJET is pretty close to it, but in the end we ALL suck.

How can we really rationalize our decision to go to a "regional" when bases open, close, are downsized, expand, or guys get furloughed.

We are doing a disservice to those trying to pick an airline telling them to pick a regional on a criteria of issues such as QOL, pay, current upgrade time and aircraft!


Has my QOL really been THAT bad at Colgan, I don't think so. I am going to enjoy 16 days off next month with 116 hours of flying, getting that TPIC. Is that bad?

Seriously, to those who want to 'settle' at a 'regional'. Be CAREFUL. Like Doug said, job security in the airline industry is laughable at best. Job security at a regional is insane.

Originally Posted by bike21

Saying every regional sucks - I just can't buy it.

They ALL do.

This 'fee for departure' the regionals get paid with by the major codeshares is BULL######.

It is basically talking the profits from the major routes and using it to supply feed to multiple money losing markets just so the marketing department can say "we serve 1500 cities!"

THAT SUCKS, SO DO ALL REGIONALS!

[777forever]

If you're flying the 170 or 175 for Republic, I'd say you have very good job security for the next several years