Am I understanding????

[Pilotdreams83]

I have been doing alot of reading on the forums here trying to glean knowledge from this forums seemingly endless experience and wisdom and I have come to a fork in the road which I need clarified.

From what I understand ATP, JETU, DC schools are considered by some as pay for job (PFJ), while other schools such as local FBO's, Skymate, most 141 school are considered "old school". Am I understanding this correctly?

I am a vet and thanks to a great many people who obviously have a great deal more insight in this biz than me, I have decided to go the 141/FBO/Skymate route - I still have the Aviator in consideration ( any suggestions on whether or not Aviator is good/bad woudl be helpful).

To be frank with you I do care how I get to a jet, but I do care that I get there responsibly, not only for me personally but for the industry....from what I understand the aviation industry is about as solid as unrefrigerated jello...so as pilots I would assume that we should all do our best to in a way protect each others, as well as our own interest (being our living).

What I am getting at is this, many of you feel that PFJ programs deminish the quality of pilot and it is a way of "cheating" the system, others find that it gives you a leg up into a certain rating/type etc, others just have the money and not alot of time.....

My feelings are this and please correct me or clarify things for me if I am wrong. As long as the pilot is responsible to know his system inside and out, know his capabilities and perform safely then being quick isn't necessarily a problem BUT there is nothing that can replace experience and that can only be gained by time....

Is there not a happy medium....from what I understand skymates is not guaranteeing any one anything, just that you will get good training at a good price.....ari ben can get you through quick but they let you know that it depends on your proficiency.

Unlike ATP that says you can go from 0-hero in 150days - 4 months of instructing - and the hired as an FO with a regional......it sounds great but you will pay out the nose for it and can you really say it is safe?

I am only trying to learn - I still have a good bit of time before I can say that I am a professional pilot, but I will be one day and I want to know all I can.

What am I mistaken on......is old school still the best school or is the new way the best way????

[JDMcFly]

It isn't that people think they are PFJ, just that they are excessively expensive and use very questionable marketing tactics.

" What am I mistaken on......is old school still the best school or is the new way the best way????"

There is no best way. Different paths work for different people.


*runs away from thread in flame suit*

[MQAAord]

There is an excellent tidbit about PFT on the main jetcareers.com page. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend it

[eagledriver101]

Your right no amount of training = the amount of experience. I don’t believe in the 0-to hero in 90 days or 150 days. I don’t think anyone would have the experience needed to perform well as an FO on a RGL airline. However, I am looking at ATP and AirBen for a few reasons. One, it fits my life style, works better for my short and long-term goals, and I learn better in a fast passed immersed atmosphere. That’s just how I learn. With that said, before I go to one of these schools I will be as ready as I can; I am a PPL with a bit over 100 hours FT. I have been around aviation my whole life, but I am going to study all the info for the ratings, PPLME/CFI/II/ME/IFR/FOI, I have ordered all the stuff to study so I can have all the “book” knowledge possible.

As far as the flight training its self, meaning, learning to fly the equipment: If person A took 8 months to get 100 hours in an ME, and person B took 2 months to get 100 hours in an ME. Would Person A or B be more proficient than the other in the aircraft?

Personally, it’s the knowledge one knows, how to handle ATC, how approaches are performed, types of airspaces, the FAR’s, all the “book” knowledge. Experience will naturally follow rather you took 8 months to get 100 hrs ME or 2 months to get 100 hrs ME

Those are my thoughts, be safe, keep your head out of the glass, and good luck with what ever you choose.

[Pilotdreams83]

Originally Posted by eagledriver101

Your right no amount of training = the amount of experience. I don’t believe in the 0-to hero in 90 days or 150 days. I don’t think anyone would have the experience needed to perform well as an FO on a RGL airline. However, I am looking at ATP and AirBen for a few reasons. One, it fits my life style, works better for my short and long-term goals, and I learn better in a fast passed immersed atmosphere. That’s just how I learn. With that said, before I go to one of these schools I will be as ready as I can; I am a PPL with a bit over 100 hours FT. I have been around aviation my whole life, but I am going to study all the info for the ratings, PPLME/CFI/II/ME/IFR/FOI, I have ordered all the stuff to study so I can have all the “book” knowledge possible.

As far as the flight training its self, meaning, learning to fly the equipment: If person A took 8 months to get 100 hours in an ME, and person B took 2 months to get 100 hours in an ME. Would Person A or B be more proficient than the other in the aircraft?

Personally, it’s the knowledge one knows, how to handle ATC, how approaches are performed, types of airspaces, the FAR’s, all the “book” knowledge. Experience will naturally follow rather you took 8 months to get 100 hrs ME or 2 months to get 100 hrs ME

Those are my thoughts, be safe, keep your head out of the glass, and good luck with what ever you choose.

I completely agree with you on the proficiency thing and on the differences in ways people absorb knowledge. I also am very interested in Ari Ben and the like....I do best when I am immersed in a learning environment as well, I basically wnted to know what the big differences are that cause so much discord among pilots....I seem to have a better understanding now. I dn't think that I could do an accelerated program right now because of personal constraints (family and the like) but if I was singel then I would definitly want to be completely focused and it seems that perhaps the schools we have discussed may woiuld be the best place for that....I have a ways to go yet before I have to ante up but it is always good to have a plan....thanks for your opinion.

[Pilotdreams83]

what programs/ materials are you using to study and get all your "book learning"....I have some materials but I want to expand my library....what do you suggest.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Pilotdreams83

what programs/ materials are you using to study and get all your "book learning"....I have some materials but I want to expand my library....what do you suggest.

Don't worry about 'book learning' yet.

Like MQ said learn and understand why PFT/PFJ are so bad, learn how you want to progress in aviation THEN worry about your book learning.

[Pilotdreams83]

sounds reasonable - I read the article and it does explain a lot....to be perfectly honest both ways of doing things have advantages...as others have said you ahve to do what is best for you.....for me I think the FBO system would work better....at least for the time being...I will just have to see.

But I don't see how it would hurt to read up on flying....you have to know maneuvers, navigation, how to use a flight computer etc no matter where you go, right?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Pilotdreams83

sounds reasonable - I read the article and it does explain a lot....to be perfectly honest both ways of doing things have advantages...as others have said you ahve to do what is best for you.....for me I think the FBO system would work better....at least for the time being...I will just have to see.

But I don't see how it would hurt to read up on flying....you have to know maneuvers, navigation, how to use a flight computer etc no matter where you go, right?

What are some advantages of PFT/PFJ programs? There are none.

Once again welcome here and it is AWESOME that you decided to go the FBO/ATP/Skymate way.

I misread I thought you were going the PFT/PFJ way. If you are going to read up on a few things, read the Jepp Private Pilot book!

[eagledriver101]

There are thousands of resources available for reading and just getting a general knowledge of the aviation scene, you won’t get better training at and FBO or an ATP setting both are adequate types of training. Like you said it depends on how it fits you, and FBO’s usually will be more than happy to tailor a program to your needs. Generally speaking a CFI should have the skills, training, and knowledge to adjust their teaching style to your learning style. When talking with a CFI tell him/her how you learn, and how they teach, tell them what you expect in the teaching, and ask them what they expect from yourself.

As far as materials, I would recommend Sporty’s DVD/Book course for what rating you’re working on. Also they have materials that are specifically for a certain function, like communicating with ATC when you’re VFR/IFR; they give you real world examples, on how it’s done. Weather, Airspaces, reading maps, navigation, usually the private pilot course comes with all the above mentioned, and much more. For me, I am a hands-on visual learner, I can read it, and understand it, but when I see it or do it, is how I become efficient at it. So when I read the Jepp books, it was nice to relate what I read to a visual, like a DVD and see someone do it. I personally think their great, they helped me a ton. They show what to expect in your Verbal/written exams, and what to expect during the check-ride. They have an actual FAA rep in the video take some one through verbal exam and check-ride. The FAA Examiner will give you a good idea of the knowledge you need and what to expect.

Try not to overwhelm yourself. There is so much information you’re going to learn as you advance in the aviation scene. Just remember, you don’t need to know everything now, and experience will follow as you go.

[Pilotdreams83]

Thank you both for your help regarding the learning resources....I appreciate it...I also learns hands on and doing it, but I can sometimes understand better if I read it....I know how to perform a process by doing it - I understand what process I am doing when I read it....

Does anyone have any gouge on King's School programs and there learning courses....I heard they are good but sporty's and jeppensen were better...this is correct yes?

[eagledriver101]

I used King schools for my private pilot, however, I personally think that Sportys is better. Nevertheless, their both fine, I just hate Martha King, they both are so cheesy, and make stupid jokes!! Haha

And you're welcome, anytime.

[surreal1221]

Just an FYI, if you plan on using your VA benefits (GI Bill) for flight training, the training establishment must be Part 141.

And as another heads up, ATP is not Part 141. . .nor would I personally lump them into the PFJ/PFT type of facilities. They are just a really large part 61 school, that costs a lot.

[Pilotdreams83]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Just an FYI, if you plan on using your VA benefits (GI Bill) for flight training, the training establishment must be Part 141.

And as another heads up, ATP is not Part 141. . .nor would I personally lump them into the PFJ/PFT type of facilities. They are just a really large part 61 school, that costs a lot.

would you say they are worth the cost

[Pilotdreams83]

Originally Posted by eagledriver101

I used King schools for my private pilot, however, I personally think that Sportys is better. Nevertheless, their both fine, I just hate Martha King, they both are so cheesy, and make stupid jokes!! Haha

And you're welcome, anytime.

I have about had my fill of cheesy video's all we have in the military for training videos are the ones that look like they were made in the 70 and the jokes are beyond stupid.....I think I will go with sporty's then. thanks!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Pilotdreams83

would you say they are worth the cost

Some swear by them. I'll say this though. On a pure cost standpoint. No.

Ari Ben, Falcon, Skymates, all cheaper.

It's a different training environment, all three of them, as compared to ATP. ATP serves one purpose, in quick, out quick, working. But there is a cost. Some, and it depends on your individual finances, can not afford the 50k+ for the speed.

And it's an even larger dent in your financial standing if you were planning on using your VA benefits.

Ari Ben in FL is VA approved.
Falcon in GA is VA approved.
Skymates is. . .or will soon be. . .VA approved.

I'd highly suggest shopping around. This is an investment in your career, but you also want to be able to live. Take advance of your VA benefits as well. But do it wisely. If you do not have a 4 year degree, find out how much money from your benefits will be left so that you can also shop around for a good state school, or an online degree program (I'd suggest in a subject area that is not aviation) to provide you the ability to check the box of College Degree on the Delta, United, American, US Air, UPS, FedEx, or other large major / legacy airline when the time to apply there comes in 10-15 years.