CSEL FAR 61.129 question

[meyers9163]

So my question is this simply I have a flight that was dual at night and well over the 100nm and 2 hours. It was from GGE-MQJ for 4.5 hours at night. Now my question is it was in the C-206H and I thought even though it was dual and at the time I was not high performance indorsed it'd still count. I find this FAR to be very vague in the reading. Any help would be appreciated.

Secondly what is the deal with if you do an x/c and its under VFR and you place a hood on, now by the reading that seems to also count since there's not specification that it wouldnt however where's the catch?

[milski]

Yes, it counts. The reg does not say that you have to be PIC for that flight. (And you can still log PIC as a sole manipulator but that's a really different question)
I am not sure about the second part - technically it might be ok, since it is in night VFR, it's a training flight, etc... but you may want to talk to the DE if he'll accept it.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by milski

Yes, it counts. The reg does not say that you have to be PIC for that flight. (And you can still log PIC as a sole manipulator but that's a really different question)
I am not sure about the second part - technically it might be ok, since it is in night VFR, it's a training flight, etc... but you may want to talk to the DE if he'll accept it.

Let me reword the 2nd part...... So during instrument training my CFI and I went to Akron to visit Tracy (complex) and during some of the trip he had me put the hood on and just fly the VOR's. I dont think he would have done this if he knew it'd screw me but does that time for my x/c then not count for my CSEL since I had the hood on during VFR conditions on a day x/c which was 100nm and more then 2 hours........ I think i know the answer but just wanting it to be said and or proved to me.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Let me reword the 2nd part...... So during instrument training my CFI and I went to Akron to visit Tracy (complex) and during some of the trip he had me put the hood on and just fly the VOR's. I dont think he would have done this if he knew it'd screw me but does that time for my x/c then not count for my CSEL since I had the hood on during VFR conditions on a day x/c which was 100nm and more then 2 hours........ I think i know the answer but just wanting it to be said and or proved to me.

This cross country is part of the 20 hours recieved requirement of 61.129; if you were working on commercial pilot VFR and it is logged as such, no problem. But if you put the hood on it is now no longer VFR.

Depending on the examiner it may or may not count, but if there is any ambiguity about it (sim instrument time, IFR training, etc), some may not accept it towards the 20 hours dual recieved required under 61.129.

edit: night not day, but same thing as far as counting it.

[Holding Short]

I think you can still use that time(X/C during instrument training).

Part of 61.129 requires 20 hours of training in area of operations, including; 10 hours of instrument training of which 5 hours must be in single engine airplane.

I don't think it has to be separate flights. That's how all those " pilot factories " out there are able to take advantage of the regs.

HS

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Holding Short

I think you can still use that time(X/C during instrument training).

Part of 61.129 requires 20 hours of training in area of operations, including; 10 hours of instrument training of which 5 hours must be in single engine airplane.

I don't think it has to be separate flights. That's how all those " pilot factories " out there are able to take advantage of the regs.

HS

So what about the 2 x/cs in which one is during the day 100nm 2 hours and one at night? If under the hood can it count or would you have to do separate x/cs for that to count?

[Holding Short]

Can what count?

HS

[amorris311]

if you go under the hood it is not a vfr flight. i dont have my far/aim book in front of me but if i can remember correctly i think it needs to be a vfr flight. i could be wrong but i am pretty sure that is what it is.

[Holding Short]

I don't think it matters that you had a hood on at all.

If you did the day flight- 100 miles 2 hours and it was actually day time, you are good to go. Same with the night.

If you time it right, you could start the 100nm trip in the day time, go somewhere and eat for a while(til it's nice and dark) and come back at night. Those 2 requirements knocked out on that one flight.

HS

[daru1]

Originally Posted by amorris311

if you go under the hood it is not a vfr flight. i dont have my far/aim book in front of me but if i can remember correctly i think it needs to be a vfr flight. i could be wrong but i am pretty sure that is what it is.

Guys, chill...
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

Remember the seemingly common conversation on this rule?
Even if you put the hood on, as long as the other person is acting as your safety pilot, and you are in VFR conditions, you may log it as a VFR cross country no matter what. As soon as that weather drops below VFR, legally you have to file IFR because your flight will be solely by reference to instruments. That's why when practicing instrument approaches with an instructor, often you will hear, "maintain VFR at all times," at the end of a clearance.

[Holding Short]

Originally Posted by amorris311

if you go under the hood it is not a vfr flight. i dont have my far/aim book in front of me but if i can remember correctly i think it needs to be a vfr flight. i could be wrong but i am pretty sure that is what it is.

If it is actually VFR outside and you didn't have to file IFR, then the flight was VFR.

I know it's confusing. Just like the logging PIC and "acting" PIC thing.

HS

[amorris311]

thanks for clearing it up.

[amorris311]

yea after reading my post i thought for a second and it did not make sense to me. thanks for clearing it up. these regs can be somewhat vague or general. sometimes difficult to understand. thats another reason this site is good.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by Holding Short

If it is actually VFR outside and you didn't have to file IFR, then the flight was VFR.

I know it's confusing. Just like the logging PIC and "acting" PIC thing.

HS

I was actually asked this question on my CFI ride;

No you cannot count the XC VFR towards 61.129 requirements if you put the hood on. The purpose of the day and night VFR cross countries it to teach dead reckoning and pilotage under VFR, not flight by reference to instruments. If the flight is for training for the instrument rating it is not training for the Commercial license. His exact words were "no double dipping"

Originally Posted by daru1

.

Remember the seemingly common conversation on this rule?
Even if you put the hood on, as long as the other person is acting as your safety pilot, and you are in VFR conditions, you may log it as a VFR cross country no matter what. As soon as that weather drops below VFR, legally you have to file IFR because your flight will be solely by reference to instruments. That's why when practicing instrument approaches with an instructor, often you will hear, "maintain VFR at all times," at the end of a clearance.

True, but if you log it as sim instrument time and try to use it to fulfill a VFR requirement, it doesn't work.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by daru1

Remember the seemingly common conversation on this rule?

Yup. In the days of the Part 61 FAQ that was being used as guidance by FSDOs and DPEs, it said that a flight that was substantially done under the hood did =not= meet the requirements of the rule.

A change in the wording of the rule appeared in the recent proposed revision of Part 61. If it becomes the rule (which IMO is pretty likely, it would allow these flights to be either VFR or IFR, solving the problem.)

[jackal278]

The PIC question was already answered correctly. You should be good in that department. But whatever you do don't log sim instrument time on either your required VFR day and night x countries. I know of a student who was sent home from a checkride before it started because he had sim logged. I found that same error with a student I had picked up mid way through his commercial.

If you think about it the commercial is a VFR rating. The point of doing the Xcountry is to practice your ded reconing and pilotage skills. That is my interpretation and many other CFIs I know as well. The only way to be 100% is to call the examiner or your FSDO. Good luck!

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by jackal278

The PIC question was already answered correctly. You should be good in that department. But whatever you do don't log sim instrument time on either your required VFR day and night x countries. I know of a student who was sent home from a checkride before it started because he had sim logged. I found that same error with a student I had picked up mid way through his commercial.

If you think about it the commercial is a VFR rating. The point of doing the Xcountry is to practice your ded reconing and pilotage skills. That is my interpretation and many other CFIs I know as well. The only way to be 100% is to call the examiner or your FSDO. Good luck!

Or just fly one thats legit solid VFR from every angle.