Where to go? - ATP, UVSC

[Future DIA Pilot]

Hello,

I am going to be a freshman at Utah Valley State College in about a week and a half.

I am asking for some advice about flight training. I know there is no right/wrong answer, but I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

As of right now, I would do all of my flight training at ATP in the summer after my freshman year. But after reading a recent post, I am wondering if that is the best choice because they cost $50,000.

I could also do all the flight training at UVSC, but I don't know if I could get as many multi hours for the same price as ATP.

Are there any other ideas anyone has? I'd really appreciate anything at all.

I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

Thank you very much,
Kevin

[jtrain609]

Take note everybody, because I really wish I had done this. If I had, I would probably be in Denny's shoes right now, or damn close.

Go to ATP and get your ratings. Instruct anywhere you can. If UVSC will hire you, sweet. If you've gotta make the drive to Heber and go work at OK3, then do it.

DO NOT GO ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU FINISH COLLEGE. GET YOUR 4 YEAR DEGREE!!!!!

When you graduate, you'll easily have over 1,200 hours. This will allow you to go to any regional you want, or if you want to do freight then you can be a direct entry hire on the Beech 99 with as much multi time as you'll have and start logging turbine PIC time right away.

You'll have TONS of options open to you at that point, just make sure you finish the degree first. People will try to talk with you about senority, upgrading, blah blah blah, but you need that degree first in my opinion.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by Future DIA Pilot

Hello,

I am going to be a freshman at Utah Valley State College in about a week and a half.

I am asking for some advice about flight training. I know there is no right/wrong answer, but I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

As of right now, I would do all of my flight training at ATP in the summer after my freshman year. But after reading a recent post, I am wondering if that is the best choice because they cost $50,000.

I could also do all the flight training at UVSC, but I don't know if I could get as many multi hours for the same price as ATP.

Are there any other ideas anyone has? I'd really appreciate anything at all.

I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

Thank you very much,
Kevin

I already responded to your PM but I think this should be out for anyone considering their training to read.

My personal experience with training at UVSC:

The place is a joke.

I can guarantee that any training you do with UVSC will take at least twice as long as it should. I waited 2 months for a PPL instructor, 8 for an instrument instructor (the school never gave me one, I had to find my own), and it was 4 months after I finished my Instrument rating that they called me with an instructor, but I had decided to go to another school and was already set for the checkride by that time.

The quality of training (the curriculum not the instructors themselves) is pretty low. They actually handed me a script to use while talking to the tower and told me I was required to use it. This was the response to a few people having trouble on the radio, make everyone read a script.

When I passed my PPL and Instrument rides I was accosted by bunches of instructors that I had never met before that wanted to know every question that the examiner had asked me; wanted me to write up a list so they could give it to their students, instead of teaching them in the first place.

On my CFI checkride the examiner actually thanked me for "not being another UVSC pilot". I guess he fails a lot of them.

Kevin, if you are here in UT then please look further than UVSC, I have heard that there are some decent schools in the SLC area, there is an excellent instructor out of Brigham City that I know of, or you could come tour my place in Spanish Fork.

[Future DIA Pilot]

Wow, that sounds like they really have a lot of room for improvement. Thank you for your insight. I'm just curious: how long ago did all this happen?

Does the place in Spanish Fork charge by the hour or is it a fixed cost? That's what sounds so great about ATP.

Again, I really appreciate you letting me know about your experience.

- Kevin

[eagledriver101]

Hey!! I live in West Jordan close to U42, read my post, http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...-decision.html

I was in the same boat, but I am doing the ATP route in PHX, you will find some here that think you should spend 2 yrs getting your ratings.... and take your time, save money, and use Microsoft Flight Sim for your IFR stuff....... Anyway, my post should have a lot of back and forth for answers you're looking for.

Hey, we should go up sometime, fly to PTL for a lunch in or something...

[eagledriver101]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Take note everybody, because I really wish I had done this. If I had, I would probably be in Denny's shoes right now, or damn close.

Go to ATP and get your ratings. Instruct anywhere you can. If UVSC will hire you, sweet. If you've gotta make the drive to Heber and go work at OK3, then do it.

DO NOT GO ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU FINISH COLLEGE. GET YOUR 4 YEAR DEGREE!!!!!

When you graduate, you'll easily have over 1,200 hours. This will allow you to go to any regional you want, or if you want to do freight then you can be a direct entry hire on the Beech 99 with as much multi time as you'll have and start logging turbine PIC time right away.

You'll have TONS of options open to you at that point, just make sure you finish the degree first. People will try to talk with you about senority, upgrading, blah blah blah, but you need that degree first in my opinion.

Yes, get your degree..... (I already have mine :-)

My goal is to get to ATP, comeback, and be a CFI anywhere, KW Aviation out of OGD had said they would hire me, I started my flight training there..... DUDE, Kevin, we could start our own FBO... than go Bankrupt because every one goes to ATP LOL

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by Future DIA Pilot

Wow, that sounds like they really have a lot of room for improvement. Thank you for your insight. I'm just curious: how long ago did all this happen?

Does the place in Spanish Fork charge by the hour or is it a fixed cost? That's what sounds so great about ATP.

Again, I really appreciate you letting me know about your experience.

- Kevin

I left UVSC in February of this year. From what I have heard it has gotten worse, not better.

We charge by the hour, which is A TON less than a flat rate, flat rate is ridiculous. $49995/200 hours= $249.98 per flight hour. That is for hours that you receive instruction, and hours that you don't. Looking at the last page of my log book I have a total of 76 hours of instruction received through CFI.

Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License


We charge:
$35 an hour for instruction
DA20: $90 an hour
DA40: $130 an hour (G1000)
PA28R-201: $104 an hour (complex aircraft for commercial)
DA42: $205 an hour (G1000 diesel engined twin)

If you don't need instruction, you don't pay for it. If you do the math, it is a lot cheaper going at an hourly rate.

As for pace, I was flying 2 and 3 times a day working on my Commercial and CFI, if you want to do things quickly, you can, it all depends on you.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License

I was under the impression you'd need only 10 hours if you already have your IFR rating. And if you only have a PPL than you'd need only 17 hours since you receive 3 hours under the hood during your PP.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

I was under the impression you'd need only 10 hours if you already have your IFR rating. And if you only have a PPL than you'd need only 17 hours since you receive 3 hours under the hood during your PP.

From :http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...a/aero-exp.doc

NOTE 4: Applicants for a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane single engine, airplane multiengine, helicopter, gyroplane, or powered-lift ratings and who already holds an instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class rating sought are not required to accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .” as stated in § 61.129(a)(3)(i); § 61.129(b)(3)(i); § 61.129(c)(3)(i); § 61.129(d)(3)(i); and § 61.129(e)(3)(i). However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours.

training that applies to one certificate or rating, cannot be applied to another.

[TheWife]

Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by TheWife

Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.

I forgot to mention that, getting hired as a CFI at UVSC is harder than the Spanish Inquisition, even if you got your CFI training there.

I had my CFI job before I had the certificate, I started with my first student the day after my checkride.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

From :www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs800/afs810/checklist/media/aero-exp.doc
training that applies to one certificate or rating, cannot be applied to another.

I see..you are always on top of everything huh

[TheAlchemist]

Does the 100nm x/c day/night has to be in a complex plane?

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

Does the 100nm x/c day/night has to be in a complex plane?

not in a complex, but it does need to be with an instructor. It is part of the 20 hours required (61.129)

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

not in a complex, but it does need to be with an instructor. It is part of the 20 hours required (61.129)

Gracias..! Cerveza?

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

Gracias..! Cerveza?

Not today, student flights in the morning.

[777forever]

Go get your 4 year done, thats way harder than any rating you'll get.

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

I left UVSC in February of this year. From what I have heard it has gotten worse, not better.

We charge by the hour, which is A TON less than a flat rate, flat rate is ridiculous. $49995/200 hours= $249.98 per flight hour. That is for hours that you receive instruction, and hours that you don't. Looking at the last page of my log book I have a total of 76 hours of instruction received through CFI.

Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License


We charge:
$35 an hour for instruction
DA20: $90 an hour
DA40: $130 an hour (G1000)
PA28R-201: $104 an hour (complex aircraft for commercial)
DA42: $205 an hour (G1000 diesel engined twin)

If you don't need instruction, you don't pay for it. If you do the math, it is a lot cheaper going at an hourly rate.

As for pace, I was flying 2 and 3 times a day working on my Commercial and CFI, if you want to do things quickly, you can, it all depends on you.

Sounds like a great place to instruct! Bet you building hours quick. Now in defense of ATP, dividing 49,995 by 200 hrs isn't a fair statement towards the cost. All your Jep books(we all know those are expensive), FAA books, 4 month Jep chart subscription(we all know thats really expensive), and PTS books are paid for. Your housing is paid for (Fully furnished apartment, not dorm room, with numerous ammenities. My buddy here says its at least 1100 a month for an apartment like that). Unlimited FRASCA and AST use. All planes standized with at least 1 G430 and HSI. Your writtens are paid for. Hotel, taxi, rental car accomodations during your across the united states cross countries are paid for. Any airline flights you need to take to CFI school is paid for. Your citation jet course is paid for. Your examiner fees are not paid for and neither is your food but thats about it. Now if you add all those factors in will your school be cheaper?

I didn't do the 90 day program because I trained at my university while in school but I sure did know where I was going to finish up when I got out of school!

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by 777forever

FAA books

Those are free from the FAA, the jep books just rehash the same info

Originally Posted by 777forever

4 month Jep chart subscription(we all know thats really expensive)

Or pay $39 a year and get them from the AOPA website

Originally Posted by 777forever

PTS books are paid for

Also free from the FAA

Originally Posted by 777forever

Your writtens are paid for

At $70 a piece that is only $490 (IP, Comm, IGI, AGI, FOI, FIA, CFII)

Originally Posted by 777forever

Your citation jet course is paid for.

Do you get a type rating out of that?

Originally Posted by 777forever

Now if you add all those factors in will your school be cheaper?

Yes, by about $20,000

[777forever]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

Those are free from the FAA, the jep books just rehash the same info


Or pay $39 a year and get them from the AOPA website


Also free from the FAA


At $70 a piece that is only $490 (IP, Comm, IGI, AGI, FOI, FIA, CFII)


Do you get a type rating out of that?


Yes, by about $20,000

You are going to print out every FAA book? You are going to print out every PTS? You are going to print out every single approach chart and low enroute chart from AOPA to have with me in flight? You are going to provide me across the USA cross country experience and pay for my hotel and transportation? You will also pay for my fully furnished apartment while I am training at your school? And you can get me done somewhere in the ballpark of 90 days for 20k less? Tell me where so I can sign up!

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by 777forever

You are going to print out every FAA book? You are going to print out every PTS? You are going to print out every single approach chart and low enroute chart from AOPA to have with me in flight? You are going to provide me across the USA cross country experience and pay for my hotel and transportation? You will also pay for my fully furnished apartment while I am training at your school? And you can get me done somewhere in the ballpark of 90 days for 20k less? Tell me where so I can sign up!

Print out no, but you are using a computer right now aren't you? We do live on the 21st century.

Why would a student pilot ever need EVERY approach plate in publication? just print the ones you need.

Low altitude enroute charts cost $4.50 at the FBO, buy the ones you need.

As for lodging and all that, those are cost incurred by attending a program like that, our students live here.


One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.

The bottom line going through a certificate mill or a mom and pop FBO, you still have the same ratings at the end of it. I think that for some people programs like ATP make sense, but for others there is no need to "get there first".

[eagledriver101]

Originally Posted by TheWife

Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.

GET THE DEGREE... I disagree with you. Lets say a RGL airline is hiring, you submit your resume, and does the other guy. You both have the time and ratings... your flight exp. is about the same. But the other guy has a degree. Guess who gets hired?? The guy with a degree.... GET YOUR DEGREE and stay away from UVSC!

[777forever]

I really wouldn't like studying all the FAA books in front of a computer screen. Anyways...

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.

This is VERY true. You are what you put in this program. No hand holding. If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch. From the pilots I have seen up here you can through commercial multi without much effort or knowledge. Those individuals are quite shocked to say the least when they arrive for CFI school.

[eagledriver101]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

Print out no, but you are using a computer right now aren't you? We do live on the 21st century.

Why would a student pilot ever need EVERY approach plate in publication? just print the ones you need.

Low altitude enroute charts cost $4.50 at the FBO, buy the ones you need.

As for lodging and all that, those are cost incurred by attending a program like that, our students live here.


One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.

The bottom line going through a certificate mill or a mom and pop FBO, you still have the same ratings at the end of it. I think that for some people programs like ATP make sense, but for others there is no need to "get there first".

It doesn't freeking matter if you GO FBO and take 2 years spending 20k, or going ATP spending 50k with all their programs, and stuff included. The pilot will only get out what he/she puts in to it. Period. I ordered the CFI study manual and a bunch of other cool stuff. I have till Feb 08 to study everything. And I already have a good background of aviation. I'm not going to show up with my pants to my knees bent over.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by eagledriver101

It doesn't freeking matter if you GO FBO and take 2 years spending 20k, or going ATP spending 50k with all their programs, and stuff included. The pilot will only get out what he/she puts in to it.

It does "FREEKING" matter when you are paying back the loan in an industry as unstable as this one. Making a payment on a $50,000 loan is a lot harder than making a payment on a $20,000 loan,especially with a family. Ask any of the guys and gals that got furloughed in this last round how making payments and bills was.

[eagledriver101]

It does not matter, eaither way you spent a lot of cash, and because you didn't put the effort in, you will not get anywhere. I want to fly for a career, I don't want to be teaching still when I am 30... there is not a damn thing wrong with doing it fast or spedning the money to do it. You're bias plain ans simple. If you had cancer would you want to go to a "Community collage Doctor" or one who spent a lot more and graduated form Harvard?