Pinnacle???

[Brand X]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

That's fine, I'm not gonna change your views, nor do I want to. I agree that Gulfstream Academy is bad in the sense you're basicaly paying for 250 hrs in a right seat of a B1900, therefore directly buying a job of at least 3 months.

Jet U, ALLATPs, etc, are just flight schools that guarantee interviews upon completion of training... nothing more.




Brand X, I agree with what you're saying (it is true, no one cares where you came from once you're already at a regional), but why are you reposting the same thing three times?

My internet connection dropped offline and evidently it posted every time I tried to log back on.

[LAFF]

Originally Posted by JEP

I am not advocating either way, but I would not say it is an "exuberent (sp) amount of money for a 7 day jet course". The ATP CRJ course is $5995, around here that will get you maybe 40 hours in a multi. If you are close to being hirable, I would venture to guess that from a purely economical standpoint that the 6k would be better spent on the CRJ course than trying to get 40 more hours of multi.

5K invested today will be worth over 100K by the time you are 60. Provided you can get a 8% rate of return on average form your 20s to 60. That rate of return is possible...

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

Yeah, well I'd agree with that. A low-timer is a low-timer, whether they went to Gulfstream, JetU, ERAU, or wherever. I don't think that's what is getting people's fur up here...



But would you care enough to blacklist them? That's the part of this thread I took issue with. Blacklisting a scab is one thing--they broke the rules of the organization (the union) doing the blacklisting. I don't get as hot about it as some guys on here, but okay--I understand it.

Being pissed at a guy because he paid for his training instead of having an airline pay for it is a different issue, and to some degree, there's some sour grapes involved. There's no "contract" saying an airline has to pay for your training. If some airlines agreed to take you off the street and take you from no-timer to PPL to ATP, would that make the pilots at OTHER airlines "blacklistable", since they paid for their stuff? Same thing...

For instance, take somebody like Travolta. He has more money than he knows what to do with, so he buys a jet. Let's say he racks up 5,000 hours in the jet. Flies in weather. Flies oceanic. Becomes a very competent pilot. Does it all. If for some insanely stupid reason he decided to give up the life of a Hollywood star to be an airline pilot (probably because Kelly Preston really digs airline pilots--that's my story and I'm sticking to it), is he less qualified because he paid for his time rather than having an airline do it? I'd say no.

Gulfstream isn't PFT, it's PFJ; pay to sit in the right seat of a Beech 1900D on revenue runs.

I.E. If AirTran charged you $50,000 to sit in the right seat of your 717 for the first 250 hours.

You see at my job, they pay me to fly the airplane.

That's why it's called a job.

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Gulfstream isn't PFT, it's PFJ; pay to sit in the right seat of a Beech 1900D on revenue runs.

I.E. If AirTran charged you $50,000 to sit in the right seat of your 717 for the first 250 hours.

You see at my job, they pay me to fly the airplane.

That's why it's called a job.

I didn't say it was SMART... I just said it wasn't the spawn of evil that some people seem to think it is!

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

I didn't say it was SMART... I just said it wasn't the spawn of evil that some people seem to think it is!

You don't think so? I think it undermines this profession, personally.

I mean who walks into McDonnalds and says, "Listen, let me pay you a few bucks an hour so you can teach me how to flip hamburgers so that in a few months, I can get that great gig at Burger King down the road."

I mean seriously, who does that?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

You don't think so? I think it undermines this profession, personally.

I mean who walks into McDonnalds and says, "Listen, let me pay you a few bucks an hour so you can teach me how to flip hamburgers so that in a few months, I can get that great gig at Burger King down the road."

I mean seriously, who does that?

And you are at (or were) a company that ONLY pays their CA and additional $5/hr to train a SIC. I'm not sure if your airline pays this FO, or if they (or another company) pays for them to be in the seat.

Yes, I know, its legit.

[jtrain609]

You know what, I'll argue with you when you can figure what the program is and isn't. I think the program is a scam, personally, but I'm not even going to try to go at it with you until you can figure out what it is.

[Fly4Pay]

OK, can we just change the subject to something we all agree on, like abortion or evoluion or something?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

OK, can we just change the subject to something we all agree on, like abortion or evoluion or something?

Naw man, this it how it does. And this one has been pretty civil. I haven't told anybody they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground like I've felt like doing a few times!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

I didn't say it was SMART... I just said it wasn't the spawn of evil that some people seem to think it is!

Well it's certainly not a nice, crisp glass of Lemonade in the spring time either.

It's not a benefit to the profession, no matter what you call it. So, it's a negative. The end.

In regards to blacklisting people who PFJs. Well, if I had the time, money, and resources available. . .I'd develop the list, but I don't. So, with that being said, it's only wishful thinking.

[mtsu_av8er]

I think that abortion is how we evolved.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I think that abortion is how we evolved.

Don't forget the enhancing characteristics of global warming.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

You don't think so? I think it undermines this profession, personally.

I mean who walks into McDonnalds and says, "Listen, let me pay you a few bucks an hour so you can teach me how to flip hamburgers so that in a few months, I can get that great gig at Burger King down the road."

I mean seriously, who does that?

The McDonalds analogy does not make sense.

ANYONE can work at McDs or Burger King, since it does not require any specilized training.

To be a regional airline pilot, you need specialized training. Some choose to get their CFIs and teach until about 900-1000hrs total time. Pinnacle won't touch you as a low timer unless you a bridge school candidate. So, that's why Jet U exists. Some choose to go to Jet U. Training at where I used to be, a Cessna 172 was for $139/hr when I left. I would have to get my Commercial single engine, CFI-initial, CFI-I, and CFI-MEI, and then start to instruct. So as far as money is concerned, I knew I would have to blow it either way. True, you get more flight experience going the CFI route, but I decided on the other route, and will work very hard to get to Pinnacle. Another reason is that I believe now is the time to get on with the airlines (esp at 9E), as opposed to some later time when who knows what might happen.

To each his own. Everyone has argued PFT before, and often it gets nowhere.

You're at XJT now? Congrats to ya.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

You know what, I'll argue with you when you can figure what the program is and isn't. I think the program is a scam, personally, but I'm not even going to try to go at it with you until you can figure out what it is.

I just think that as we try to educate people need to know what every company is doing. Isn't that what this site was developed for? I have heard multiple things about AMF and Airnet's SIC programs, and I didn't want to publish incorrect information. That is why I have asked. Don't you think people looking at those company should know that they might be asked to take a person with them SIC. And yes, you might be single pilot operations, but its legit to take a SIC and let them log it. Fine, its legit, but is it right? Sounds like you dont agree with it, and I will praise you for it. DId you know about it when you sign on with them? How did you learn of it?

I thought we were trying to make the industry better?

[DE727UPS]

Jtrain didn't DO the Eagle Jet/Amflight SIC program. That program differs from Gulfstream in that you aren't taking the seat of a required crewmember. That's what PFJ is and it's rightfully spoken ill of, I think. The Eaglejet/amflight deal is a timebuilding program where you sit in the right seat and log legal time on 135 frieght flights. I see it as no different than doing the "safety pilot loophole" thing where two guys both log PIC multi. It's no worse and no better. It might be actually cheaper and you get the benefit of sitting next to a guy with some kick butt experience as opposed to sitting next to a guy who might have 100 hours. You also have to attend the company ground school and flight training to be "allowed" to log the time.

The Amflight guys get a $5/hr override for allowing these guys to be in the seat and the guys can be bumped for freight, as they are NOT required crewmembers.

This sort of time will stand out at an interview like a sore thumb. Some will not like it and others won't care. It's legal time, though.

[Soul Brotha']

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I think that abortion is how we evolved.

Didn't they teach you knuckleheads during Black History month that all mankind comes from Africa? Oh wait, that might have been my Dad during Appleton Estate nights.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Soul Brotha'

Didn't they teach you knuckleheads during Black History month that all mankind comes from Africa? Oh wait, that might have been my Dad during Appleton Estate nights.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

I just think that as we try to educate people need to know what every company is doing. Isn't that what this site was developed for? I have heard multiple things about AMF and Airnet's SIC programs, and I didn't want to publish incorrect information. That is why I have asked. Don't you think people looking at those company should know that they might be asked to take a person with them SIC. And yes, you might be single pilot operations, but its legit to take a SIC and let them log it. Fine, its legit, but is it right? Sounds like you dont agree with it, and I will praise you for it. DId you know about it when you sign on with them? How did you learn of it?

I thought we were trying to make the industry better?

You never really thought that my lack of very much public comment on this program has anything to do with not wanting to lose my job, have you?

I'd love to set you straight, but Don already has for the most part and if you'd like to know my thoughts on the program shoot me a PM.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

LOL! I love it! Your definition of a better pilot is one who gets paid to fly, which is followed up by 'all that matters is I pass the oral and checkride.'

Face it... anyone can memorize and pass the oral. If you can play Sega and are not too bad a stick, you'll learn and pass the sim. Those two items don't make the "better pilot."

I'm sorry, but the *better* pilot would have said, "all that matters to me is to learn everything I can to be a safe and competent pilot once I get on the line at Pinnacle."

That's what a "better" pilot would have said...

So, essentially, you're paying JetU to teach you how to play a specific Sega game really well. Honestly, that's it. Once you're out of training, like it or not, your classmates that have real world experience are gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of you. Don't think for a minute that you've got it made once you pass the checkride. You've still got OE and year's worth of probation to go through. Not only are the check airmen you fly with on OE evaluating you, but periodically, the line CAs you fly with will be evaluating you, and THEY can be a LOT harsher. I've talked to a couple of guys that actually put "Shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car much less in an airplane" on some eval forms of probationary FOs. A lot of guys relax once they've gotten through OE (assuming they get THAT far) and wind up getting smacked by a heavy dose of reality.

JetU does one thing: it gets your ready for the training environment. It does NOTHING towards making you a valuable, qualified FO. If an engine goes out, a thrust reverser deploys or the stab trim runs away, I have no doubt they'd be all over it. If there's a passenger in the back having a heart attack in a thunderstorm, the CA looks at the guy and says "Well, what do you think?" my money's on a total freeze up.

[jtrain609]

Word Steve

[DE727UPS]

Double Mega Word....

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

So, essentially, you're paying JetU to teach you how to play a specific Sega game really well. Honestly, that's it. Once you're out of training, like it or not, your classmates that have real world experience are gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of you. Don't think for a minute that you've got it made once you pass the checkride. You've still got OE and year's worth of probation to go through. Not only are the check airmen you fly with on OE evaluating you, but periodically, the line CAs you fly with will be evaluating you, and THEY can be a LOT harsher. I've talked to a couple of guys that actually put "Shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car much less in an airplane" on some eval forms of probationary FOs. A lot of guys relax once they've gotten through OE (assuming they get THAT far) and wind up getting smacked by a heavy dose of reality.

I'm a serious guy, an engineer at heart. I always strive to do the best I can, and if I mess up somewhere, I always want to learn and fix my mistake to not repeat it. I'm completely open to input from anyone I fly with. You're right, it's no easy cake walk once you do the checkride and IOE. I know I have to earn the Captain's respect (and trust) everyday in the cockpit (and for that matter, every time with a new captain) for the probationary first year, and for years beyond that. In the cockpit (and at the airport), I don't have any ego, and I have a open-willing-to-take-criticism/critique from anyone I fly with. With the right attitude and mindset, I hope to be successful.

JetU does one thing: it gets your ready for the training environment. It does NOTHING towards making you a valuable, qualified FO. If an engine goes out, a thrust reverser deploys or the stab trim runs away, I have no doubt they'd be all over it. If there's a passenger in the back having a heart attack in a thunderstorm, the CA looks at the guy and says "Well, what do you think?" my money's on a total freeze up.

I agree that they hit profiles, flows, memory items, systems, and the sim pretty hard here, all in preparation for Memphis.

And you're right, some real life experience might be a little lacking. But to say I'll freeze if someone is having a heart attack while we're in a thunderstorm is a little much. I don't see how 500 more hours of traffic watch or crop dusting would have made me any better to judge what to do with a heart attack passenger. This situation is a common sense one. Try and get medical attention, divert as necessary to "nearest suitable airport" and get medics. Assuming the weather is holding up at the chosen airport, choose the nearest suitable airport w/ weather that allows a landing (weather above mins).

[jtrain609]

You know, it's one of those situations where you really have to say, "Kid, until you've been there and seen the ####, you don't have a clue about what you're gonna do."

It's not that the 500 additional hours of traffic watch helps you, it's the two engine failures, 50 near mid air's and constant dealings with ATC that helps you.

Aviation is not as academic as engineering. You can't study it in the classroom and expect to go out and apply it. You've gotta get down in the #### and get slapped in the face a few times by it.

Until you're been there and done it, expect to be a wanna-be and a know it all who has never been. It's just one of those things, and you won't understand it until you ARE sitting there with somebody dying in the back of your plane and you're faced with a decision to make. You can think about it all you want, but until your butt is in the seat thinking, "Ahh...if we mess this one up much we're gonna be in for a world of ####, and this was never a profile in the sim..." you're pretty much worthless.

So no an extra 500 hours of traffic watch won't happen, but having to had made decisions and actually extract yourself from a few less than great situations goes a lot further than you might think. Of course why would you think that, you've never been there thinking, "Huh....this is really bad....in fact this is impossible.....erm....guys have lawn darted with less than this going on before..."

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I've had one engine failure (sorry it isn't up to your standards of two engine failures), and I've had plenty of near mid airs and constant dealings with ATC flying in the DC ADIZ. I certainly won't discredit that experience.

Until you're been there and done it, expect to be a wanna-be and a know it all who has never been. It's just one of those things, and you won't understand it until you ARE sitting there with somebody dying in the back of your plane and you're faced with a decision to make. You can think about it all you want, but until your butt is in the seat thinking, "Ahh...if we mess this one up much we're gonna be in for a world of ####, and this was never a profile in the sim..." you're pretty much worthless.

Hey man, I DO understand it. I was flying with a guy in the back of a C172 who started to complain of chest pains. I thought heart attack, and IMMEDIATELY landed at the airport I had just left from, told the tower to call an ambulance if they could, and get us help. After I landed, the ambulance had just pulled up in the parking lot, and he was taken care of by the paramedics and taken to the hospital. Thankfully, he was ok, and is doing fine.

Did I freeze? Heck no! Why the he!! would I have frozen?!?! I'm sorry, it really was common sense.

Here was a guy who I thought was in serious trouble. He said chest pains, I thought 'heart attack!'. It was common sense that told me on that day to turn around, land immediately, and get this guy some help. I did exactly that, and he's fine.

[jtrain609]

Oh man, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that at 250 hours you were hot ####.

I don't mean to discount your experience, because it's good you've seen that stuff, but seriously man, I didn't realize you were such a great pilot.