121 low time pilots

[meyers9163]

So we all know there are pleanty of guys and gals getting hired at 500/100 and there about. So it got me thinking how are these pilots doing in training and on average how many are wash outs? I know that ATP has agreements with Xjet, RAH, and PCL which can get you on with 500/100 and therefore it got me wondering how pilots are indeed doing in training? I know there's no way to say that all low time pilots are going to struggle or all are doing well but I just want to get a feel as to how in general they are doing.

[Diamnd15]

most i have seen go through training just fine, but once they get out and actually fly the plane its pretty easy to tell...

[higney85]

I have to give the "low timers" credit to make it through the interview, training (mainly sims), and IOE. Jumping from a 140kt plane to a jet that does over 140 on final is a huge jump. With that being said I have heard that some of the low timers are really weak with visuals and the decision making- but that would be expected. I don't blame the guys for taking the jobs only because I think all of us would have made the hop at 500/100 if we had the opportunity when we (current 121 pilots) where wanting out of the little sweatboxes (instructing). The damage to the pilot profession was done (in only my opinion) when everyone began taking the concessionary contracts and not striking- sure the gov't barred a strike- but a mass sickout and everyone purposely delaying things would have caused a public outcry to management leaving them with their hands tied. While I do think every airline had to tighten up on all fronts (even labor) I fault ALPA for not having strict "payback" clauses in the concessionary deals. NWA for example- these pilots have the work rules and contract of a regional (just higher pay for larger equip) and management hurt themselves by not offering to help after concessions. I see it every day at work- the guys get paid 40% less so they taxi at snail speed and fly slow. Do you blame them when the CEO just got an additional $26M when some pilots that have been with NWA for 10-15 years lost their homes? Giving up 40% helped mgmt, but having to pay the extra 10 minutes worth of taxi on every end of every leg has to cost much more than the labor savings. Having provisions for the pilots, mechanics, and FA's for payback would have kept the company moving much more efficiently and made the group feel like a team, instead of feeling like slaves. Look at SWA- they pay their people very fair, and the employees help the company, everyone is happy and the applicants they attract are the most qualified guys/gals. I know that kinda veered off the topic path but o well...The "taking it back" needs to happen with pilots not taking the crap threats from mgmt and standing strong to get good and "fair" contracts.

[jtrain609]

I'll let you know how much of a a pain I am in a jet cockpit in about a year...

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by higney85

I have to give the "low timers" credit to make it through the interview, training (mainly sims), and IOE. Jumping from a 140kt plane to a jet that does over 140 on final is a huge jump. With that being said I have heard that some of the low timers are really weak with visuals and the decision making- but that would be expected. I don't blame the guys for taking the jobs only because I think all of us would have made the hop at 500/100 if we had the opportunity when we (current 121 pilots) where wanting out of the little sweatboxes (instructing). The damage to the pilot profession was done (in only my opinion) when everyone began taking the concessionary contracts and not striking- sure the gov't barred a strike- but a mass sickout and everyone purposely delaying things would have caused a public outcry to management leaving them with their hands tied. While I do think every airline had to tighten up on all fronts (even labor) I fault ALPA for not having strict "payback" clauses in the concessionary deals. NWA for example- these pilots have the work rules and contract of a regional (just higher pay for larger equip) and management hurt themselves by not offering to help after concessions. I see it every day at work- the guys get paid 40% less so they taxi at snail speed and fly slow. Do you blame them when the CEO just got an additional $26M when some pilots that have been with NWA for 10-15 years lost their homes? Giving up 40% helped mgmt, but having to pay the extra 10 minutes worth of taxi on every end of every leg has to cost much more than the labor savings. Having provisions for the pilots, mechanics, and FA's for payback would have kept the company moving much more efficiently and made the group feel like a team, instead of feeling like slaves. Look at SWA- they pay their people very fair, and the employees help the company, everyone is happy and the applicants they attract are the most qualified guys/gals. I know that kinda veered off the topic path but o well...The "taking it back" needs to happen with pilots not taking the crap threats from mgmt and standing strong to get good and "fair" contracts.

Interesting take and I enjoyed reading your view on things. Honestly there were a couple things you stated I was unaware and never heard that angle on things....


ANY other comments are welcomed! I'd like to hear and I think it'd be good for some other LOW time pilots to hear what you all with more experience are not only observing when flying with them on the line but yet if you have any knowledge about training and they are doing as well. I think it should do some good to hear.

[Bog]

Finishing training is one thing. Having the experience to deal with the weather, delays, abnormals, and emergencies that life throws at you is something that cannot be taught at a flight school. That can only come from experience, and at 500TT ... you don't have much, unless you fly in Alaska.

If your concern is only how they're doing in training, it's my understanding the the newbies at MAG have been doing well IF they go in with a serious attitude. There have been a few recently who went in with the attitude of "they're desperate, they won't kick me out." Well, they got kicked out. If you stick your nose in the books, pay attention in class, and remember to give yourself time every day to unwind and relax, you will pass any class.

[jtrain609]

Wait, you mean to tell me that passing training doesn't mean I'm fully capable of flying a jet on the line? SAY IT AIN'T SO BOG!!!!!

[Bog]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Wait, you mean to tell me that passing training doesn't mean I'm fully capable of flying a jet on the line? SAY IT AIN'T SO BOG!!!!!

Well of course it aint so.

[jtrain609]

heh, I'm fully planning on being a complete pain in the butt in this ERJ I'm gonna be training in for a little while. Flows, callouts, systems, standardized everything? Yup, got that with my current job. Heck I even most at almost the same speed in the terminal environment. But jet engines, screaming out of the flight levels at 500 knots and into them at 300 while climbing at a few thousand feet per minute? That'll take a little while to get used to...

[higney85]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

heh, I'm fully planning on being a complete pain in the butt in this ERJ I'm gonna be training in for a little while. Flows, callouts, systems, standardized everything? Yup, got that with my current job. Heck I even most at almost the same speed in the terminal environment. But jet engines, screaming out of the flight levels at 500 knots and into them at 300 while climbing at a few thousand feet per minute? That'll take a little while to get used to...

You would be amazed at how fast you adapt..

[ZapBrannigan]

You'll be whining about how slow it is and what a pig it is in the climb before you know it.... then, when that wears off, you'll be whining about the paycheck.

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan

You'll be whining about how slow it is and what a pig it is in the climb before you know it.... then, when that wears off, you'll be whining about the paycheck.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this trend continues to retirement.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

I have a sneaking suspicion that this trend continues to retirement.

I concur- I have hit all 3 levels already... darn...

[C150J]

I just pretend I'm running like Lloyd in "Dumb and Dumber." Then it's light-speed.