Proof that Regional New Hire Population is OUT OF CONTROL!

[mtsu_av8er]

I flew freight this morning.

I'll do it again this afternoon.

Sandwiches with boo-boo in them are nasty.

Scope is for wimps.

That is all.

[GaTechKid]

After a few months of seeing our reserve levels keep dropping it becomes almost comical to see how lean a management team can run an airline. I think we hit a new low on the FO side with 2% reserves system-wide. On one hand it blows having your requested time off denied due to staffing, but on the other hand it helps all the new-hires get off near povery level compensation and into something nearing subpar. My increasing seniority and magic lunch cooler have managed to squeeze $28,000/year out of $19.25/hour.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

The bottom line is that unless you're military (which dosen't have near the output to staff the airlines, by any stretch) then your choices are freight or regional.

Is it a great idea to get that arbitrary $35/hr starting pay rate to fly, er, 'optimistically' maintained equipment, with a poor schedule, minimal benefits, and no travel bennies? Is it a great idea to work for a regional holding 15 days off, vacation passes to Europe, and 401k match at 5%, but only making $22/hr? For me the answer was the latter, but if anyone has any great ideas for intermediate-type jobs that are perfect all around and have the demand that the regionals and cargo does, we're all ears.

Well that's not entirely true either, Jim.

Amflight's planes are maintained VERY well, the problem is aging airframes. There's only so much you can find during inspections. The mechanics here don't skimp on anything, though.

No travel benefits? I can get on Southwest jumpseats and I've abused it as much as possible.

No benefits? I've got health, dental, vision and a 401K.

There are STILL other things at work.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

No travel benefits? I can get on Southwest jumpseats and I've abused it as much as possible.

But that is for the single person. How do you take the family along, or atleast the wife?

[jtrain609]

What wife?

And if you think that those non rev benefits are great for taking the whole family along, you haven't paid attention to this forum.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

What wife?

And if you think that those non rev benefits are great for taking the whole family along, you haven't paid attention to this forum.

I was referring to my wife to be able to travel with me. I didnt say they were a great benefit, and maybe if you could only JS for work related it might open up non-rev for use...not JS to hit a M&G. Isn't that the whole idea JS, to get to/from work?

Also, remember I non-rev too!

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Well that's not entirely true either, Jim.

Amflight's planes are maintained VERY well, the problem is aging airframes. There's only so much you can find during inspections. The mechanics here don't skimp on anything, though.

No travel benefits? I can get on Southwest jumpseats and I've abused it as much as possible.

No benefits? I've got health, dental, vision and a 401K.

There are STILL other things at work.

Didn't mean to step on yer toes John. My point was that there's a lot of bad cargo outfits out there that pay well, and there's a lot of good regionals out there that dont pay so hot at all. As you said, it's just a matter of which #### sandwich you want to eat.

I agree that there's other things at work. One of those things is bitter old dudes at the majors who are so removed from the realities of trying to make it in a flying career these days that all they can spout off about is "those dern little planes!" I'm always astonished at people who have been in aviation so long, and yet are so clueless.

[Hootie]

Originally Posted by Future DIA Pilot

Boy, I sure hope that the regionals have some room left in a four years when I finish college... I'm worried that there won't be any slots left.

There will ALWAYS be slots to fly riddle jets for 22g.


There will NEVER be a shortage of qualified pilots for jobs that pay well.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Didn't mean to step on yer toes John. My point was that there's a lot of bad cargo outfits out there that pay well, and there's a lot of good regionals out there that dont pay so hot at all. As you said, it's just a matter of which #### sandwich you want to eat.

I agree that there's other things at work. One of those things is bitter old dudes at the majors who are so removed from the realities of trying to make it in a flying career these days that all they can spout off about is "those dern little planes!" I'm always astonished at people who have been in aviation so long, and yet are so clueless.

Oh no toes stepped on at all maing, I'm just saying there are ###### carriers on both sides of the fence. It's obvious I've rather take my chances with Express over Amflight, but I'd take Amflight over just about every other regional out there. That's my personal thing, though. You love people trying to steal your ####? Live in North Hollywood and live outta Burbank like me! Don't dig? Then leave, move to SLC and commute to ONT or at the worst move to the inland empire and hate little a little less until you're off reserve.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

The bottom line is that unless you're military (which dosen't have near the output to staff the airlines, by any stretch) then your choices are freight or regional.

Jim, you forgot a few. Charter, Fractional, Corporate, Law enforcement, Agriculture.......just to name a few.

[Kingairer]

I for one cant wait to get out of the regionals.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

I for one cant wait to get out of the regionals.

Don't worry, I bet that you'll be getting out soon!

[rausda27]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Don't worry, I bet that you'll be getting out soon!

I thought the same thing about 6 months ago. Dang unwritten PIC requirement.

The only way I got out of the regionals was to get out of 121 flying completely.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by FlyingSig

OK, how about a regional that starts you out at more then $30K? Anyone?

.

I made a little over $32K my first year at Allegheny in 1999/2000......man I miss that contract!!!

Jason

[Bog]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

I for one cant wait to get out of the regionals.

It's the greatest thing. You'll love it!

The comment was made that with the regionals in a hiring frenzy, the pilot group now has the ability to "take back" the lost pay, QOL, etc, etc. That's a nice thought, and in theory is a reachable goal, but it won't happen. Don't believe me? Then explain to me why ANYONE is seeking employment at MAG right now.

A buddy of mine (was an ERJ CA in MCO) recently quit because he was only able to see his pregnant wife and their 2-year-old 6 days out of the month. A 14-year CA recently walked off the job in the middle of the day. 87 pilots quit in the month of May ... and ~half were FOs. Yet, the reality is that the newhire classes are STILL filling up. People do not choose to believe that you will be treated as a piece of dirt there. So ... with people intentionally going to work at the WORST regional at a time where you can easily get hired by a RESPECTABLE regional ... how on earth will things ever change?

We as pilots have much to learn from the trade unions.

/rant

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Jim, you forgot a few. Charter, Fractional, Corporate, Law enforcement, Agriculture.......just to name a few.

I didn't forget them at all; those jobs are either unattainable from the CFI ranks (requiring upwards of 2000TT, turbine time, or both), offer too few positions to be a viable job (like law enforcment), or do nothing to forward your movment to the majors (AgCats do not an airline resume make). Obviously, things like banner tow, traffic watch, and jump plane work are similarly limiting.

No, for the average grunt CFI looking for 1000 hours of TPIC that the airlines require, as well as having that time in large swept-wing turbojets, you've got freight and the regionals.

Oh sure, there's onsey-twosie jobs to be found, and if you're the lucky COM who can get one, more power to ya. But for the overwhelming majority of us, it's cargo or RJs.

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by Bog

... with people intentionally going to work at the WORST regional at a time where you can easily get hired by a RESPECTABLE regional ... how on earth will things ever change?

We as pilots have much to learn from the trade unions.

/rant

This is it, perfectly. I had ample opportunity to get hired on at lousy regionals, but passed them all up for one that I knew to have good work rules, good schedules, good morale, and industry-leading pay. But then, I did my homework. Unfortunately, I appear to be in the minority. There are far, far too many flegling pilots who are so tunnel-visioned on getting hired at the first place that will have them that they fall headlong into places like Mesa and MAG.

The answer is education. These guys need to get the facts, and there needs to be organization at the CFI/time building level.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

I didn't forget them at all; those jobs are either unattainable from the CFI ranks (requiring upwards of 2000TT, turbine time, or both), offer too few positions to be a viable job (like law enforcment), or do nothing to forward your movment to the majors (AgCats do not an airline resume make). Obviously, things like banner tow, traffic watch, and jump plane work are similarly limiting.

No, for the average grunt CFI looking for 1000 hours of TPIC that the airlines require, as well as having that time in large swept-wing turbojets, you've got freight and the regionals.

Oh sure, there's onsey-twosie jobs to be found, and if you're the lucky COM who can get one, more power to ya. But for the overwhelming majority of us, it's cargo or RJs.

The fact of the matter is that you are incorrect. Almost all of my close friends and acquaintances obtained turbine experience through other means, mainly part 135 charter. There are quite a few of these jobs all over the country, one just needs to be, to use your word, educated and do a little work to find and obtain these positions. On the other side of the coin, I will mention that there are 135 charter jobs that aren't any better and on occasion worse than flying an 80,000lb. jet for $25K/yr. No matter how you slice it Jim, it just isn't right. You won't see that of course because you're doing it, but flying that type of equipment for such little compensation (in any sector of the industry) is wrong. Nothing personal, I'm just stating what myself and thousands of other experienced professional pilots feel. Crap, I know, I threw another blow at the dead horse again.

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

The fact of the matter is that you are incorrect. Almost all of my close friends and acquaintances obtained turbine experience through other means, mainly part 135 charter. There are quite a few of these jobs all over the country, one just needs to be, to use your word, educated and do a little work to find and obtain these positions. On the other side of the coin, I will mention that there are 135 charter jobs that aren't any better and on occasion worse than flying an 80,000lb. jet for $25K/yr. No matter how you slice it Jim, it just isn't right. You won't see that of course because you're doing it, but flying that type of equipment for such little compensation (in any sector of the industry) is wrong. Nothing personal, I'm just stating what myself and thousands of other experienced professional pilots feel. Crap, I know, I threw another blow at the dead horse again.

Johnny, please believe me when I say that had there been a turbine 135 charter job available when I was a CFI at 1500/400, I would have been all over it like a dog on a fudgesickle. It wasn't for lack of looking or 'education' either; all of us, everyone I knew, scoured the market for an alternative to the abysmal 1st year RJ/FO pay or on-demand cargo schedules. Everyone I knew went to fly cargo or for the regionals. No one, and I mean no one, found a turbine 135 charter job. I'm not saying that you're stretching the truth or anything, but if you know something that the CFI's in this country don't, you should be hooking them up with jobs rather than just saying "don't work here or there". If you can do that, I'm utterly and totally fine with you saying "Told you so!" I'm not talking about one or two postings either-- I'm talking about enough jobs to meet the demand.

I agree that the 1st year pay is bad, and that needs to change. Guess what? It is. Everyone is worried about mainline pay going down, but the exact opposite is happening- 1st year regional FO pay keeps going up and up and up, at least at the places that are good to work at. Obviously, the answer is not "Don't work for regionals". That's fantasy-land. The answer is "Only work for the good regionals, and under no circumstances apply to the crap-hole places". That's precicely what I did, and I have to tell you, there's not a whole lot at XJT to complain about. There's a lot more to this job than the 1st year pay, and even that is beginning to change.

[C150J]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Jim, you forgot a few. Charter, Fractional, Corporate, Law enforcement, Agriculture.......just to name a few.

Jonny I'm with you, but law enforcement? What was the wait in your agency? I specifically joined a PD after college to fly for them, only to find out that it would be at LEAST seven years before getting into a cockpit again (more like eleven). CBP lists its minimums at 1500TT, but most of the guys I know that are getting on have 3000TT or were Army boys. Same for AZ DPS and MD State Police.

DEA? Two years as a agent, then maybe you'll get a crack at a 208. Needs of the agency as well. They decide to cut back on pilots, you're back to working a desk. FBI? Two years at least as an agent to reach a Cessna, and then you're up against former AF/Army guys for the G-550, Dash 8, etc.

LE has some neat aviation opportunities, but you need to be 100% committed to be an LEO first, pilot second. Even with CBP, you're going to be pushing paper for about two years before becoming completely qual'd on the equipment.

I agree with you about the pay of regionals, and I specifically only applied to the one I thought was right for me (pay, duty rigs, time off). This month I have two four day-weekends and two three-day weekends, affording me the ability to either pick up open time or just do what I want. I'm not contending that we don't deserve more, though.

As for part 135 - I had some opportunities, but they weren't the most ideal. I know most 135 outfits are good - my friend just got on with a great one straight from CFI-hood - but the ones I spoke with weren't for me.

[cre8flyer]

Here's a probably unpopular, but necessary "reality check" hijack:

Originally Posted by FlyingSig

BTW, I define poor pay as any job that pays less then $40K/year (which is the average starting salary for a 4 year college grad with a non-specialty major like business or liberal arts). OK, how about a regional that starts you out at more then $30K? Anyone?

Are you (a poor, underpaid bus driver, who started flying without thinking economically), really comparing a 4 year college degree (investment in time, effort and $) to pilot training (e.g. investment of $60'000 and 150 days at ATP that takes you from zeros to CFI, CFII, MEI), and expecting the return on those investments to be equal $? If you are, I'm not surprised that you're disappointed by the financial rewards in aviation.

While the supply of pilots (who fly for passion, not $, at least until they discover economic reality), exceeds the demand, the airlines will have the liberty to set "minimums". Only once the "minimums" are reduced to close to zero will there be a real necesity to incur additional costs to treat pilots nicely (e.g. $, work rules, etc.).

Even the best union cannot reverse this economic reality. Let's face it. . . even with recently reduced minimums, there are still too many pilots to achieve any meaningful increase in $ rewards.

In Europe and Asia (where general aviation is pretty much non-existent and there is no self-generating pool of trained pilots), airlines recruit highschool students with zero time. They have to treat them well and pay them a living wage. That's where we will have to get before airlines have the economic necessity of increasing costs just to attract pilots.

[C150J]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

really comparing a 4 year college degree (investment in time, effort and $)

I can see it both ways... I went to a top-ten Ivy League school, and have some observations:


- A good deal of my classmates went straight to grad school, as their undergraduate degrees were not marketable.

- Most of my friends who have high-paying jobs work 60-80 hours a week, are tied to a BlackBerry, and generally pour most of their money into rent in high cost-of-living areas. The average starting pay is roughly $60,000 for those that come out with a B.S.

- A portion of them are sent on an airplane Monday morning to another city and returned Friday evening. These assignments last for months at a time. They live in hotel rooms. Sound familiar?

- From my experience, the undergraduate experience is a mere foundation. It provides a means develop analytical and social skills while developing a work ethic. I didn't expect a return on my four year other than to help me get where I WANTED to go.

- I can't think of one time in college that required as much attention to detail, situational awareness, extemporaneous confidence, and skill that a checkride/emergency situation (yes, I've had a 172's engine blow) requires. I learned a great deal in school, but the number of hurdles in front of an aspiring pilot are just as daunting as most ungrads facing law school/med school. Mind you I'm referring to the learning process, nothing else.

- None of my friends have jobs where mistakes can result in death. I know this is a grandiose assertion, but I think it's an important one to make.

Regarding your contention that 150 days equates to a vocational skill - you're right. All in all, I think it shouldn't be about bare vocation (I contend that it isn't at the higher echelons of professional aviation), but it is at this level. You could be a complete mope and get hired, and will be compensated accordingly. Unfortunately (pay-wise), PLENTY of pilots aren't just mopes. They are perfectionists, leaders, and will routinely go above and beyond the call of duty. We are hurt because of our willingness to do more than the bare minimum. Hopefully the motivated ones will get to a job where they're valued (Bog, for example).

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

In Europe and Asia (where general aviation is pretty much non-existent and there is no self-generating pool of trained pilots), airlines recruit highschool students with zero time. They have to treat them well and pay them a living wage. That's where we will have to get before airlines have the economic necessity of increasing costs just to attract pilots.

This is an excellent, excellent point, and actually makes me rethink my inital bais against user fees for GA.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

This is an excellent, excellent point, and actually makes me rethink my inital bais against user fees for GA.

So, you'd rather kill GA and get living wages at regionals??? Kinda between a rock and a hard place at that point, aren't you? I'd rather try to educate the up-and-coming pilots as to what to look out for. Yes, some will slip through the cracks and fill the ranks of Mesa, or whatever regional is unpopular now, but seriously, kill GA to raise the bar of regionals??? Sorry, that's one serious thing you and I will have to agree to disagree on!!!