Jeppesen and the CIA

[C150J]

Interesting read. Not sure how Jepp would have ANY idea of what the CIA would be doing on those flights, or if the planes were even explicitly CIA aircraft.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/.../rendition.php

[ElyJs]

I have a friend that does support for Jepps programs used by gov't agencies. He was able to pull up flights and be able to tell a lot more than you would think. He actually brought this issue up a few months ago soJepp knew it was coming.

-Jason

[bdhill1979]

SO by providing flight planning info they are complicit to and profiting from torture???

DO we have a smilie for horse poop?

[seagull]

By that measure, I think you could make a claim against about every company that touched it. Who provided the fuel? Who manufactured the airplane? Did any of the operatives get flown into position on a commercial airline? Better sue them too....

[C150J]

Originally Posted by seagull

By that measure, I think you could make a claim against about every company that touched it. Who provided the fuel? Who manufactured the airplane? Did any of the operatives get flown into position on a commercial airline? Better sue them too....

I've been on dates that have gone south and this has happened... women filing suit against the car manafacturer, the restaurant, the streets used to drop her off, etc.


JK. Good point though!

[daru1]

You might find this on the AP wire, but this is where I found it.

http://galvestondailynews.com/wire.l...OEING_CIA_SUIT

ACLU: Boeing Offshoot Helped CIA
By PAT MILTON
Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK (AP) -- The American Civil Liberties Union said Wednesday it is suing Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a subsidiary of Boeing Co., claiming it provided secret CIA transportation services to shuttle three terrorism suspects overseas, where they were tortured.

The cases involve the alleged mistreatment of Binyam Mohamed, an Ethiopian citizen, in July 2002 and January 2004; Elkassim Britel, an Italian citizen, in May 2002; and Ahmed Agiza, an Egyptian citizen, in December 2001.

Mohamed is currently being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; Britel in Morocco; and Agiza in Egypt, the ACLU said in a statement.
Details of the claims were to be released later Wednesday at a news conference.

Calls and e-mails to spokesmen for Chicago-based Boeing and Englewood, Colo.-based Jeppesen, a subsidiary of Boeing Commercial Aviation Services, on Wednesday morning seeking comment were not immediately returned.
The lawsuit, which the ACLU said it would file Wednesday in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, charges that Jeppesen knowingly provided direct flight services to the CIA that enabled the clandestine transportation of the men to secret overseas locations, where they were tortured and subjected to other "forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" under the agency's "extraordinary rendition" program.
"American corporations should not be profiting from a CIA rendition program that is unlawful and contrary to core American values," said Anthony D. Romero, executive director of the ACLU. "Corporations that choose to participate in such activity can and should be held legally accountable."
The Bush administration has insisted it receives guarantees from countries receiving terror suspects that prisoners will not be tortured.
The lawsuit involves a branch of the company called Jeppesen International Trip Planning, which the ACLU calls a "main provider of flight and logistical support services for aircraft used by the CIA in the U.S. government's extraordinary rendition program."

The ACLU said its lawsuit was being filed under the Alien Tort Statute, which permits aliens to bring claims in the United States for violations of the law of nations or a United States treaty. It said the statute recognizes international norms accepted among civilized nations that are violated by acts such as enforced disappearance, torture and other inhuman treatment.

[SteveC]

(daru1's thread merged into existing thread on same topic)

[Mahesh]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

SO by providing flight planning info they are complicit to and profiting from torture???

DO we have a smilie for horse poop?

Well remember that the first thing that our government does when punishing other nations is to also go after corporations that deal do business with those nations. Corporations are a big part of how countries execute their policies.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with going after Jeppesen but it's the same logic that we apply when we don't like companies doing things we disagree with.

In fact, I think President Bush just announced sanctions against a bunch of companies doing business with Sudan. Before I get flamed for saying that our government is the same as Sudan, I am NOT. I agree with his decision.

[surreal1221]

Perhaps this will trigger other companies to have a bit more of a moral standard before taking part in these types of operations.

But. . .it's Boeing, one of the largest Government sub-contractors around. . .I won't be holding my breath.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Perhaps this will trigger other companies to have a bit more of a moral standard before taking part in these types of operations.

But. . .it's Boeing, one of the largest Government sub-contractors around. . .I won't be holding my breath.

What makes you think that Jepp knew what "type" of operation this was? I'd be willing to bet that Jepp doesn't typically ask the purpose of the trip when performing trip planning functions. For example I know that Universal doesn't ask us the purpose of the trip when we use them for international trip planning purposes.

[surreal1221]

I'm always told by my wife that I don't ask enough questions.

Maybe companies will start to ASK these types of questions of their customers, to protect themselves from such litigation.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Perhaps this will trigger other companies to have a bit more of a moral standard before taking part in these types of operations.

But. . .it's Boeing, one of the largest Government sub-contractors around. . .I won't be holding my breath.

????!!??

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I'm always told by my wife that I don't ask enough questions.

Maybe companies will start to ASK these types of questions of their customers, to protect themselves from such litigation.

I'm guessing that you want all of the gun manufacturers to be sued when their products are used in an illegal manner as well? Liqour companies? Automobile manufacturers?

How about suing the pilot of an airliner that transports a murderer to the scene of a crime?

[surreal1221]

Gun manufactuers. . .no. The individual who committed the crime, yes. Same for liquor, or automobile accidents.

Liquor companies, no.

Automobile manufactuers, no.

The individual pilot, who is being employed by a company, with no decision on what his or her cargo is, no.

Why, could the CIA, not have used a public organization for whatver they used Jeppesen for? If it's flight planning, and flight watching, the Air Force has the resources needed to do such a job.

What it comes down to, in my humble opinion, is that this administration feels the need to outsource nearly everything that has to do with national security to private companies. Now, these private companies may have to protect themselves from litigation.

[BB33]

Very interesting arguments here. I cant say I agree with ACLU's position but well see how far they get. If they really want to bring attention to the case they should sue the pilots. Can you imagine the doodoo storm that would get kicked up if US citizens got sued by other US citizens for violating the rights of an Ethiopian citizen, an Italian citizen, and an Egyptian citizen just by providing a service to government agency during the War on Terror? Go ACLU!

[Mahesh]

I guess many here don't see anything wrong with "extraodinary rendition" or whatever it is called. Give it a nice name and you can do anything you want right?

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Mahesh

I guess many here don't see anything wrong with "extraodinary rendition" or whatever it is called. Give it a nice name and you can do anything you want right?

I'm OK with it. The ACLU, on the other hand, gets less OK by the day.

[mtsu_av8er]

Crazy stuff . . . I was offered, and turned down, a position as an International Trip Planner with Jepp Dataplan - twice.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by flyover

I'm OK with it. The ACLU, on the other hand, gets less OK by the day.

Protecting our civil liberties, protecting the constitution . . . is getting less OK by the day?

Better hope that, should you be arrested for being a "terrorist," this country will even recognize your citizenship - and the rights available to you. (Re: Habeas Corpus removal thanks to the Military Commission Act of 2006).

Then again, the type of people who support snatching people up in the dark, moving them to some foreign country to beat and torture them - those types of people - have very little sense of humanity as it is.

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by Mahesh

I guess many here don't see anything wrong with "extraodinary rendition" or whatever it is called. Give it a nice name and you can do anything you want right?

Not a damned thing wrong with it!!!-- Now you tell me you don't see something wrong with slitting a man's throat, video taping it and posting it on the internet. Go ahead.

I have a hard time imagining anything the CIA did to KSM that would bother me in the least.

[skydog]

I was listening to a story on NPR about this, and one of the points that the commentator made was that any trial or lawsuit that came out of this would likely get quashed under the "need to protect National Security" laws. The thing that occurs to me is, if national security is such a concern, then why did the CIA and the US Government go with an outside, private sector,
for-profit company to get the work done.

That said, while I don't think Jeppesen has any legal responsibilty in this matter, I feel they do have a moral responsibility. If they knew this was going on, then they should have, at the very least, stopped taking the business.

[Mahesh]

Originally Posted by Old Pete

Not a damned thing wrong with it!!!-- Now you tell me you don't see something wrong with slitting a man's throat, video taping it and posting it on the internet. Go ahead.

I have a hard time imagining anything the CIA did to KSM that would bother me in the least.

The whole point is that there is NO oversight and many innocent people are being picked up. But who cares right? You don't see anything wrong with it because it's not your family member that is being picked up and taken away to another nation for questioning, most likey through torture.

Of course the terrorist tactics are sickning and horrible. That however doesn't mean that we throw away all our principles.

The strength of a democracy is shown at bad times when there is fear in the citizens. There is so much talk of democracy and bringing it to the world. But as soon as we are scared, toss it all out the window.

So we don't torture people like in the middleeast, we just contract it out???

[SteveC]

Personally I think that most of you guys are missing the point.

A company is being sued for something that its customer did with its product. That company has no legal or moral responsibility to police its customer's actions. Think about it. The implications of this type of law suit are incredibly bad for private companies everywhere.

If Jepp can be held responsible for handling flight planning without checking the end usage of that flight, then GM can be sued for selling a car to a person that is used in a bank robbery. Luisville Slugger can be sued when an abuser beats his wife to death with a 32" MLB special. Gillette can be sued when someone uses a straight razor to cut a pocket and steal a wallet.

How in the world you people expect Jeppesen to have a clue what the U.S. government is doing with the flight planning services that they supply, is beyond my comprehension. I no more expect Jepp to know what the reason for those flights were than I expect them to quiz me on why I want them to plan a flight for me from South America to the United States. I can guarantee that my Very Important Passenger will be upset if I spill the beans about his confidential business meetings to anyone. I can also guarantee that Jeppesen has absolutely no need to know why this, or any other, flight is taking place.

The legal and moral questions surrounding the transport of those people has absolutely no bearing on a lawsuit against a private contractor with no control over the end use of its product.

Think about the ramifications people.

[Mahesh]

I mentioned earlier that I'm not sure I agree with the lawsuit against Jepp. I was talking about the CIA program itself. I personally like Jepp and wouldn't mind working for them!

I do however think that the Bush adminsitration has used a lot of private contractors in the war on terror. Even in Iraq, it was private contractors that (I think CACI) that were found to be crossing the line at Abu Ghraib. So private companies in some cases do participate knowingly.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by skydog

I was listening to a story on NPR about this, and one of the points that the commentator made was that any trial or lawsuit that came out of this would likely get quashed under the "need to protect National Security" laws. The thing that occurs to me is, if national security is such a concern, then why did the CIA and the US Government go with an outside, private sector,
for-profit company to get the work done.

That said, while I don't think Jeppesen has any legal responsibilty in this matter, I feel they do have a moral responsibility. If they knew this was going on, then they should have, at the very least, stopped taking the business.

Bingo!

Private sector, by taking on roles that have traditionally done by public organizations (which have the capacity, oversight, and mission statements for such missions) open themselves up to this type of litigation - that otherwise would not have been available if the administration had not gone and found the lowest bidder.