Pushback With Thrust Reversers

Bell47 · August 7th, 2003, 07:10

While passing thru Atlanta yesterday (on Delta, of course), I observed an aircraft pushback from the gate with thrust reversers only (no tug). I've never seen this before and, quite honestly, didn't know it was possible. Any comments?

Doug Taylor · August 7th, 2003, 07:11

It was probably American or Air Tran.

The DC-9 variants are approved by the manufacturer to "power back" with the usage of thrust reversers.

Tim · August 7th, 2003, 07:40

The 717 does powerbacks also.. The only one in ATL that do those are Airtran, American and Northwest.

Bell47 · August 7th, 2003, 07:41

Thanks Doug.

Yes, it was an Air Trans DC-9, I should have been more specific.

Snow · August 7th, 2003, 17:43

Does Delta have a policy against powerbacks? Is that because of increased risk or maintaince costs?

CASHMAN737 · August 7th, 2003, 19:34

Powerbacks are not listed in the ground ops manual as an acceptable method of pushing back Delta aircraft, (such as the 88). American Airlines does have powerback procedures and the method is widely used by the airline. Having worked for Delta Air Lines on the ramp for two summers I can say safety is big at the airline.

Chris Ashman
ERAU DB Campus

Bell47 · August 7th, 2003, 19:52

It seemed to take quite a bit of throttle to power back.

What about the jet blast to ground handlers and those unsuspecting passengers in the rear of the aircraft - they'll be popping chutes again?

Come back to us on this, Doug.

sigmanu499 · August 7th, 2003, 22:19

American does this alot. I have been on 3 flights that did it, on both MD-80 and F-100. The first time I was wondering if it was safe because I had heard that is what caused the Air Florida crash in the 80's at DCA. But if it means less ground crew to pay.....

Mr_Creepy · August 8th, 2003, 04:38

The Air Florida plane crashed because of ice buildup on the EPR probe. It caused the FO to set less than desired take off power because of the faulty high reading on the EPR gauges (EPR - Exhaust Pressure Ratio.) That's the first time I ever heard anyone reference a thrust reverser situation.

I'm trying to picture a possiblility that a power back might have thrown ice and snow on the EPR probe but I don't see how that could readily happen.

CF6_rep · August 8th, 2003, 05:45

I used to work on the ramp at American about 15 years ago. Many times the 727s powered back from the gates using thrust reversers. As far as safety for the ground crew, it got quite windy and we wore goggles (like those in high scholl shop class) to keep the little pebbles and rocks from hitting us in our eyes.

Tim · August 8th, 2003, 06:06

One problem Delta see with powerbacks is the increased chance of FOD ( Foreign Object Debris ). The bean counters also talk about the fuel increase also. But we have done dumber things with our money here.

N9103M · August 8th, 2003, 22:26

[ QUOTE ]
The Air Florida plane crashed because of ice buildup on the EPR probe. It caused the FO to set less than desired take off power because of the faulty high reading on the EPR gauges (EPR - Exhaust Pressure Ratio.) That's the first time I ever heard anyone reference a thrust reverser situation.

I'm trying to picture a possiblility that a power back might have thrown ice and snow on the EPR probe but I don't see how that could readily happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

When they backed out, they sprayed snow and slush back onto the wings and back into the engine inlet. Compounding the problem, Engine Anti-Ice was not turned on for the takeoff and so the EPR probe was not heated. And as you said it gave erronious readings and the EPR was not set properly for takeoff. Really sad chain of events....

--03M

Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L · August 9th, 2003, 06:36

When Powering back either a DC-9 or a 727, never stop with the brakes, or you will stand the plane on it's tail. We stop by applying forward thrust.

August 7th, 2003, 07:10	#1
Bell47 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New York Posts: 31	Pushback With Thrust Reversers While passing thru Atlanta yesterday (on Delta, of course), I observed an aircraft pushback from the gate with thrust reversers only (no tug). I've never seen this before and, quite honestly, didn't know it was possible. Any comments?

August 7th, 2003, 07:11	#2
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,827 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers It was probably American or Air Tran. The DC-9 variants are approved by the manufacturer to "power back" with the usage of thrust reversers.

August 7th, 2003, 07:40	#3
Tim Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,205	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers The 717 does powerbacks also.. The only one in ATL that do those are Airtran, American and Northwest.

August 7th, 2003, 07:41	#4
Bell47 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New York Posts: 31	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers Thanks Doug. Yes, it was an Air Trans DC-9, I should have been more specific.

August 7th, 2003, 17:43	#5
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 869	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers Does Delta have a policy against powerbacks? Is that because of increased risk or maintaince costs?

August 7th, 2003, 19:34	#6
CASHMAN737 Newbie Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 6	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers Powerbacks are not listed in the ground ops manual as an acceptable method of pushing back Delta aircraft, (such as the 88). American Airlines does have powerback procedures and the method is widely used by the airline. Having worked for Delta Air Lines on the ramp for two summers I can say safety is big at the airline. Chris Ashman ERAU DB Campus

August 7th, 2003, 19:52	#7
Bell47 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New York Posts: 31	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers It seemed to take quite a bit of throttle to power back. What about the jet blast to ground handlers and those unsuspecting passengers in the rear of the aircraft - they'll be popping chutes again? Come back to us on this, Doug.

August 7th, 2003, 22:19	#8
sigmanu499 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 232	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers American does this alot. I have been on 3 flights that did it, on both MD-80 and F-100. The first time I was wondering if it was safe because I had heard that is what caused the Air Florida crash in the 80's at DCA. But if it means less ground crew to pay.....

August 8th, 2003, 04:38	#9
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers The Air Florida plane crashed because of ice buildup on the EPR probe. It caused the FO to set less than desired take off power because of the faulty high reading on the EPR gauges (EPR - Exhaust Pressure Ratio.) That's the first time I ever heard anyone reference a thrust reverser situation. I'm trying to picture a possiblility that a power back might have thrown ice and snow on the EPR probe but I don't see how that could readily happen.

August 8th, 2003, 05:45	#10
CF6_rep Newbie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Asia Posts: 5	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers I used to work on the ramp at American about 15 years ago. Many times the 727s powered back from the gates using thrust reversers. As far as safety for the ground crew, it got quite windy and we wore goggles (like those in high scholl shop class) to keep the little pebbles and rocks from hitting us in our eyes.

August 8th, 2003, 06:06	#11
Tim Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,205	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers One problem Delta see with powerbacks is the increased chance of FOD ( Foreign Object Debris ). The bean counters also talk about the fuel increase also. But we have done dumber things with our money here.

August 8th, 2003, 22:26	#12
N9103M Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Belleville, MI Posts: 235	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers [ QUOTE ] The Air Florida plane crashed because of ice buildup on the EPR probe. It caused the FO to set less than desired take off power because of the faulty high reading on the EPR gauges (EPR - Exhaust Pressure Ratio.) That's the first time I ever heard anyone reference a thrust reverser situation. I'm trying to picture a possiblility that a power back might have thrown ice and snow on the EPR probe but I don't see how that could readily happen. [/ QUOTE ] When they backed out, they sprayed snow and slush back onto the wings and back into the engine inlet. Compounding the problem, Engine Anti-Ice was not turned on for the takeoff and so the EPR probe was not heated. And as you said it gave erronious readings and the EPR was not set properly for takeoff. Really sad chain of events.... --03M

August 9th, 2003, 06:36	#13
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Titusville, FL Posts: 201	Re: Pushback With Thrust Reversers When Powering back either a DC-9 or a 727, never stop with the brakes, or you will stand the plane on it's tail. We stop by applying forward thrust.

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