Logging PIC question for complex aircraft

[JaceTheAce]

Can I log PIC time for my commercial training in the Piper Arrow while flying with my instructor since I'm rated in that category and class, or should I not log it due to never being endorsed to fly complex aircraft? I'm kicking myself in the butt for not requesting me instructor to endorse me for it because I want everything to be consistent with regard to PIC time logged. All my other time in the Piper Warrior for Dual Received IFR flights are logged as PIC after I earned my private. As asked many times on this forum before, UND doesn't like to log PIC time for the usual reasons they like to give.

I am thinking the answer is a NO since I wasn't at the time endorsed to fly the complex aircraft as PIC.

[bdhill1979]

You must be complex endorsed before logging PIC
61.31.E

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

You must be complex endorsed before logging PIC

Crap. I knew it. Not that I'm all giddy about PIC time - I just want everything to be consistent.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

Crap. I knew it. Not that I'm all giddy about PIC time - I just want everything to be consistent.

consistency is good, not to mention keeps you from having things to explain.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

consistency is good, not to mention keeps you from having things to explain.

None of my Piper Warrior flights with an instructor have PIC logged even though I was current for that category and class with my PPL. I am considering going back and adding all the PIC time after I was the sole manipulator of the flight controls and a Private Pilot. What do you think I should do? Leave it or go back and add the PIC time as appropriate and legal?

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

None of my Piper Warrior flights with an instructor have PIC logged even though I was current for that category and class with my PPL. I am considering going back and adding all the PIC time after I was the sole manipulator of the flight controls and a Private Pilot. What do you think I should do? Leave it or go back and add the PIC time as appropriate and legal?

The FAA defines what is legal to log, not your flight school, Personally I would log the PIC time so long as its legit with the FARs. I would imagine others might have a different opinion, but its your logbook, not theirs

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

The FAA defines what is legal to log, not your flight school, Personally I would log the PIC time so long as its legit with the FARs. I would imagine others might have a different opinion, but its your logbook, not theirs

That's always been my opinion.

---> "But UND's way is the best way since UND is the best" <---

[CamYZ125]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

You must be complex endorsed before logging PIC
61.31.E

While I agree that you must be endorsed for complex and/or high performance to ACT as PIC for a complex and/or high performance airplane, FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) states that:
"A sport recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person - (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

So, as it has been argued many times before, one can argue that because you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft which you are rated (airplane single engine land, no?) then you may LOG PIC time.

That's how I log it in my A36 student's books.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by CamYZ125

While I agree that you must be endorsed for complex and/or high performance to ACT as PIC for a complex and/or high performance airplane, FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) states that:
"A sport recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person - (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

So, as it has been argued many times before, one can argue that because you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft which you are rated (airplane single engine land, no?) then you may LOG PIC time.

That's how I log it in my A36 student's books.

That's how I interpret the regs, but what will the big bad "Administrator" say when they decide to violate me for falsification of logbook records

[SteveC]

You can log it.

Check out Midlife Flyer's FAQ for a pretty good synopsis. Read it through more than once. Really.

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by CamYZ125

While I agree that you must be endorsed for complex and/or high performance to ACT as PIC for a complex and/or high performance airplane, FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) states that:
"A sport recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person - (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

So, as it has been argued many times before, one can argue that because you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft which you are rated (airplane single engine land, no?) then you may LOG PIC time.

That's how I log it in my A36 student's books.

FAR 61.31 Type rating requirments, additional training, and authorization requirements is pretty specific about this.

61.31.E
(

e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997.

Edit:

Originally Posted by SteveC

You can log it.

Check out Midlife Flyer's FAQ for a pretty good synopsis. Read it through more than once. Really.

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2

Just read that, I agree acting PIC and logging PIC are two different things, maybe you can log that time.

[Dugie8]

Jace

Unless they have changed AIMS around A LOT, you should be able to log all the time you were "manipulating" the controls as PIC in the Arrow and Warrior. I think the only thing records looks for is the time of the lesson, status (complete or not) and that all the lessons were done in the correct order.

Logging the PIC now will help when it comes time for your ATP and such, if you don't instruct long enough or something of the like. Completely legal, completely legit and completely UP TO YOU.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Jace

Unless they have changed AIMS around A LOT, you should be able to log all the time you were "manipulating" the controls as PIC in the Arrow and Warrior. I think the only thing records looks for is the time of the lesson, status (complete or not) and that all the lessons were done in the correct order.

Logging the PIC now will help when it comes time for your ATP and such, if you don't instruct long enough or something of the like. Completely legal, completely legit and completely UP TO YOU.

Thank you sir. After reading the posts and reviewing the FAR/AIM, it appears legal and I am going to log it.

The only thing I worry about is if it'll screw up the course clearing for 325 when AIMs doesn't agree with "all that PIC time in my logbook". I'm trying to get course cleared so I can get a stage pilot for my 103 before graduation in a couple of weeks.

[Screaming_Emu]

why the crap aren't you endorsed for complex aircraft yet? Aren't you working on your multi?

[mojo6911]

This is the same issue as safety pilot. There is a distinct difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC. You can log it because you are rated for the aircraft. An endorsement is not a rating.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

This is the same issue as safety pilot. There is a distinct difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC. You can log it because you are rated for the aircraft. An endorsement is not a rating.

This has been discussed many times on these boards. It is not even a close question. You clearly may log PIC time in a complex aircraft for the time during which you are sole manipulater, even before you get the complex endorsement, as long as you appropriately rated in the aircraft.

You may not, however, act as PIC until you have the endorsement.

[Cessnaflyer]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

This has been discussed many times on these boards. It is not even a close question. You clearly may log PIC time in a complex aircraft for the time during which you are sole manipulater, even before you get the complex endorsement, as long as you appropriately rated in the aircraft.

You may not, however, act as PIC until you have the endorsement.

quoted for the perfect short answer

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

why the crap aren't you endorsed for complex aircraft yet? Aren't you working on your multi?

I am working on my multi yes. I never got endorsed because I used the Warrior to make up my 98 hours I needed for the 323 course in order to save money. I will be starting my CFI training in June or July anyway, so I guess I can get a complex endorsement then.

Joe, do you think I can get it now from my 323 instructor???

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

I am working on my multi yes. I never got endorsed because I used the Warrior to make up my 98 hours I needed for the 323 course in order to save money. I will be starting my CFI training in June or July anyway, so I guess I can get a complex endorsement then.

Joe, do you think I can get it now from my 323 instructor???

Just get it from your 325 instructor, semi is a complex aircraft.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Just get it from your 325 instructor, semi is a complex aircraft.

I'm dumb ......*duh* haha

[cypilot77]

First of all, you can not rent a complex airplane or fly your own, UNLESS you have a complex endorsement. So, if you can not fly it by urself, then you can not get PIC time. But if your flying with your instructor to get the endorsement, then your instructor is suppose to sign your book as a training flight and you shouldnt worry about it. And YES, your instructor can enter the flight as PIC.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by cypilot77

First of all, you can not rent a complex airplane or fly your own, UNLESS you have a complex endorsement. So, if you can not fly it by urself, then you can not get PIC time. But if your flying with your instructor to get the endorsement, then your instructor is suppose to sign your book as a training flight and you shouldnt worry about it. And YES, your instructor can enter the flight as PIC.

heh?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by cypilot77

So, if you can not fly it by urself, then you can not get PIC time.

One does not have to be able to act as PIC in order to log PIC.