Thought Provoker: 2 Worst Majors?

[CapnJim]

What with all the best/worst threads, I figured this one would get some debate going. Here's my picks:

1. NWA (straight outta Compton!)

2. United (misnomer)

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

What with all the best/worst threads, I figured this one would get some debate going. Here's my picks:

1. Northworst (straight outta Compton!)

2. Untied (misnomer)

Fixed it for ya. I'd say Northworst and inContinental.

[eglplt]

US Airways and Delta, in that order! I spend quite a bit of time in the back of airplanes and these two never fail to dissapoint. I am glad the merger didn't go through, we would have had one dominating turd!

[Murdoughnut]

From a customer stand point -

1) US Air - granted, a lot of their problems are related to the crappy weather they fly into, but their customer service is a nightmare. I won't fly them, no matter how cheap the ticket is.

2) Delta - Has more to do with the crappy regionals they use - my GF's Comair flight has been changed twice now and now she'll have to rebook on SW and try to get a refund due to a conflict. Hire some freakin' pilots, and treat them well enough to stay on board for God's sake!

[CapnJim]

Hmmm, that's a good question: is it fair to juge the airline by the preformance of the regional they use?

I couldn't say Continental, despite a strong emotional appeal to do so. I wouldn't have been judging the airline by it's QOL, work rules, and future prospects, but rather by the bad behavior of a minority of its employees.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Hmmmmmm, this one is gonna be hard!

#1.) US Airways

2.) Northwest

[OldTownPilot]

After Northwest's rebranding into NWA and seeing Soul Plane, I have a hard time keeping the two separate.

I keep wanting to see a casino and a huge ass club when I get on one of their planes....

[meritflyer]

1) Delta has messed up my business travel on sooo many occasions. They need a SERIOUS lesson in customer service too. Cant stand waiting for 30 minutes on the phone to speak to a CSR and get nothing.

2) SWA, simple because I cant stand the A, B, and C line.

[AAJetMech]

I'm picking my two on the basis of 'quality' management and their ability of co-exist with their one major support group.... Their employees....

1. Northwest or USAir (its a toss up)
2. United

I would truly hate to work for any of those airlines. I worked for Eastern Air Lines many years ago and get nothing but flashbacks when I think of these airline CEO's and the battle with their employees. Its a shame!!

[N422NM]

1. Pan Am
2. TWA

[kellwolf]

Well, it's an easy one on #1 for me: NWA. Their work rules and contract aren't even a step above a regional....it IS a regional contract. The pay is better than a regional, but nothing to write home about for the aircraft and routes they fly. The base choices aren't all that appealing, either. As for #2, it's a toss up for me. United and US Airways b/c of the issues with labor and CAL for the pay and benefit issues for new hires.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

for me: NWA. Their work rules and contract aren't even a step above a regional....it IS a regional contract.

I am not necessarily anti-union but this is the thing that makes me question the effectiveness of the ALPA.

/sidenote

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I am not necessarily anti-union but this is the thing that makes me question the effectiveness of the ALPA.

/sidenote

I don't blame ALPA, I blame the union leaders that saw a way to gets stuff THEY wanted at the expense of the younger guys (ie throwing the low seniority guys under the bus). The pilot group still had to vote for it, they just weren't shown all the nifty little clauses thrown into the contract on the road shows. Things like nice bonuses for the CEOs and phasing out the DC-9s in favor of a bigger regional feed. Now those guys are pissed, hence the recent rash of picketting events. Also keep in mind that the former ALPA pres is a senior NWA pilot. I've already learned that even at regional airlines, the senior guys won't think twice about sacrificing guys junior to them to get what they want since those guys haven't "paid their dues."

[tprops4me]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but can someone please tell me why United is so hated? I can see NWA, but UAL seems to pay ok, as well as have a huge route structure, and have good domiciles. Just curious.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I don't blame ALPA, I blame the union leaders that saw a way to gets stuff THEY wanted at the expense of the younger guys (ie throwing the low seniority guys under the bus). The pilot group still had to vote for it, they just weren't shown all the nifty little clauses thrown into the contract on the road shows.

Aren't union leaders the ALPA? If I am reading this correctly, its like saying "I dont hate the US government, I just hate the people responsible for it's actions".

Seems like an oxymoron to me.

Isnt the union supposed to protect PILOTS from these sort of things? I think the answer is, yes! If they're not doing such, how effective have their efforts been. Dont even the junior guys pay the 1% to ALPA?

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Aren't union leaders the ALPA? If I am reading this correctly, its like saying "I dont hate the US government, I just hate the people responsible for it's actions".

Seems like an oxymoron to me.

ALPA is not unlike our current political process...

There are strong local governments... and there are not so strong ones.

All of them (local chapters - different airlines) are only as good as their constituency. That doesn't mean the entire government is bad. Some chapters have backbones... some don't. Either way... most don't do anything without a majority percentage of a vote.

Bob

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

There are strong local governments... and there are not so strong ones.

I agree but the ALPA isnt necessarily a division or branch of govts. Its one body.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Aren't union leaders the ALPA? If I am reading this correctly, its like saying "I dont hate the US government, I just hate the people responsible for it's actions".

Seems like an oxymoron to me.

Isnt the union supposed to protect PILOTS from these sort of things? I think the answer is, yes! If they're not doing such, how effective have their efforts been. Dont even the junior guys pay the 1% to ALPA?

Yes and no. ALPA at NWA pretty much sucks, but ALPA at PCL is holding its own for the senior AND the junior guys. To say that it's the fault of ALPA is not true. It's the fault of the individual MEC leaders, not the entire union. It's more like saying "I don't hate the US governement, just the White House." XJT is ALPA as well, and their union seems to be making the right moves. The trick is to get the right people in the right positions at the local level. ALPA national can't negotiate contracts for the individual airlines. That's done at the local level. However, ALPA national DOES have to sign off on all those contracts. In the past, it seemed like no one was reading union contracts and Worthless just signed off on whatever. I kinda get the feeling Prater wouldn't sign off on a sub-standard contract, even if it was at a regional. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks Woerth KNEW his days were numbered and wanted to aid in saving his own pension.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I agree but the ALPA isnt necessarily a division or branch of govts. Its one body.

Nope. Not true. It's a COLLECTION of individual, LOCAL bodies with a national backbone network. If XJT could negotiate PCL contracts, then it would be one body.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I agree but the ALPA isnt necessarily a division or branch of govts. Its one body.

Ummm... no.

Think of it like this:

Individual Airline ALPA groups: Local & State Goverment
ALPA National: US Federal Government
ALPA International: United Nations

[meritflyer]

Ahh.. I see. Either way, I still see SO MANY pilot groups that are on the short end of the stick. Effective ALPA?

I guess it depends on what side of the stick you're on.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Hmmm, that's a good question: is it fair to juge the airline by the preformance of the regional they use?

Yes, how could you not?

Regionals are one of the main problems with this business. When you contract out your work, the employees care less about doing a good job and just focus on doing it good enough. They don't care about the company and the company suffers thus the employees suffer.

It would be amazing to see a CRJ flown by United instead of operated by XX for UA. In the end it comes down to getting what you are paying for though.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I am not necessarily anti-union but this is the thing that makes me question the effectiveness of the ALPA.

/sidenote

You have NO idea how effective ALPA has been over the years. Look at the rules and regulations ALPA has put forth, then you might want to think about what you just said.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Ahh.. I see. Either way, I still see SO MANY pilot groups that are on the short end of the stick. Effective ALPA?

I guess it depends on what side of the stick you're on.

Pilots are wimps (especially the new age of ATP/ARI-BEN/RIDDLE/UND/PURDUE I wanna fly a jet at 300 hour pilots). If we stand united and fight, instead of taking the easy way out, we all would have contracts like FEDEX or SWA.

Instead we have scabs, GoJetters, Gulfstreamers, and those who think it is great to fly a freaking 70-90 seat 'regional' for $20,000 a year.

If you want to be a pilot have balls to stand up and fight for your profession.

When pilots grow them, then you will see what we deserve.

Get a job, then start fighting.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Seggy

You have NO idea how effective ALPA has been over the years. Look at the rules and regulations ALPA has put forth, then you might want to think about what you just said.

You're right Seggy. I have no idea on a micro scale what ALPA has done over the years.

Go ahead and shoot me for saying, on a macro what I do know and have seen is millions in wage cuts, work rules, benefits, and other concessions.

With such losses to the profession, I look at ALPA with a careful eye.