Cool news story about a Southwest Pilot ! - Page 2

ready2fly · August 6th, 2003, 08:27

[ QUOTE ]
didn't say it sucked, nor that they didn't have the right to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you took that the wrong way.

What I meant by that is that it "sucked" because you didn't get hired. You obviously wanted a job there or you wouldn't have applied. Am I right?

shooter13 · August 6th, 2003, 08:32

I learned long ago in my first year in the Navy, never begrudge a person their good deal because someday you may have the opportunity and you damned sure better take it.

So I have no problem with her getting a bit of favoritism because of all the people she has met. If you read the story it sure sounds like she has worked her butt off for years. If I was deciding if I was going to hire her and I have letters from 22 current employees telling me how great she is, I am going to take their advice. They are the ones out there doing the job and if they will stake their reputation on her, that is a huge up check in my book. Maybe flying is different but in my community who you are and what people I trust think about you means a heck of a lot more than your rank and any awards or honors you may have gotten.

RedBelly · August 6th, 2003, 08:47

John Tenney,

I was going to lay off your last 2 posts, but I checked your website & I think you can handle the truth. (Love the pic with Sean Hanninty!)

First, you mentioned you have 200 hours in the 737-700. I would venture to guess that that meant "Jack-diddly-squat" in the interview. You could have 5000 hours PIC in the 737 and it still would not give you an advantage. Once you make it to the interview at SWA, everyone is equally qualified.

Second, you mentined that at SWA it all comes down to who is on the pilot board. What makes this different then any other company in the world? It is the opinions of the people you meet during the interview process that determines whether or not you get hired. You can be the most qualified person in the world, but if the people you meet in the interview don't like you, you will not get the job. History is chock full of freindly, well mannered, and qualified people that did not get the job. On the flip side, their are millions of buttheads who for some reason or another make good first impressions and get the job.

Southwest is also chock full of pilots who got hired on their second and third interviews, so keep trying!

August 6th, 2003, 08:50

[ QUOTE ]
The playing field is not level

[/ QUOTE ]

welcome to life.

So you're telling me, that when you meet the minimums of an airline, and let's say your uncle/friend walks in your resume with a few letters of recs, they offer you the job, you're going to turn it down? Didn't think so.

I've had the opportunity to interview/hire people. Let me just say this, I interview someone I do not know that is highly qualified and gives a decent interview. Then I interview someone who comes in with tons of letters of recs, knows a few people around the office and is qualified, but may not have the experience of the first. I am going to hire the person who comes recommended. Mainly because you feel as if you already know the persons character before they walk into the door.

JEP · August 6th, 2003, 09:12

Jt,

exactly. the way I see it, once you get the interview, your quals don't mean too much. If you get the interview, you have already passed that "check" in the process. It is now a matter of how the interview goes. Maybe one is wearing a blue tie and they don't like the color blue. At this point they will make the decison to hire/not hire you for any or no reason at all. I would only take issue with this process if they hire an individual that does not meet their req'd mins before someone else that does. Otherwise there is not much one can do about it.

Mr_Creepy · August 6th, 2003, 10:47

I agree. Nepotism is not necessarily bad, as long as the people are qualified.

To deny that is to deny family values.

MarineNav · August 6th, 2003, 11:14

Hello,

"The deciding factor in this woman getting her job was her choice of parents..."

Wow, she chose her parents! That's so cool! (jk)

Interesting points about nepotism. In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism?

Regards,

JR

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2003, 11:23

[ QUOTE ]

Interesting points about nepotism. In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

pilot602 · August 6th, 2003, 11:26

[ QUOTE ]
In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. A union has no bearing on whether an individual is hired. It only protects the indivdual's rights once they become an employee. And in most places the employee even has a choice as to join the union or not.

Nepotism is the practice of favortism in getting a job/position in relation to family members already in the organization. I.E. The mayor gives the job of "sewer manager" or "parks and recreation manager" to his son and the other position to his wife, which in and of itself is still not nepotism, but when other qualified applicants were not fairly considered, nor any effort made to offer the positions to other applicants, that is nepotism. It generally only comes into legal play in city/government jobs. In the prvate sector there is more leeway.

In fact, this whole thing about this very story being a case of nepotism is hogwash. Why? Because the father had no direct bearing on the hiring process other than his recomendation - which he could give to anyone and still can.

Now, if he (and the 22 recs she had) were the hiring board, a case for nepotism could be made a little easier.

mtsu_av8er · August 6th, 2003, 12:22

[quoteI want to hear from the first person who will be foolish enough to claim that her technical qualifications and her level of experience exceeded every one in her interview group who was not hired...then we will know who the first liar is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it is pretty safe to say that there is an upper limit to how much "more qualified" one person can be for a job than another person - flying or otherwise. There's much more than technical qualifications that come into play when you're looking for somebody to fill a position. During my military career, I had the opportunity (curse) to be involved in the reviews of several meritorious promotions, and was promoted myself meritoriously more than once. If you crunch the numbers and select only the people that have the highest scores in everything, well.....that could suck in the end.

Ever consider that maybe she ws hired because she did well on the interview? Maybe that she had really good grades in school? Maybe it was deemed that she would make a better Southwest crewmember than the next guy with 6,000 turbine PIC, because he has an attitude problem....or whatever the reason was.

Not everything is so cut and dry.....

Mr_Creepy · August 6th, 2003, 12:29

Let's not forget that Cindy Hamilton and crew would have found it very difficult not to hire her. How would they explain that to her dad?

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2003, 12:35

How many of you that are upset with this lady have 737 type ratings, exceed SWA's minimum qualifications and have a fresh application on file with letters of reccomendation from pilots that shared operational experience with you?

fly22 · August 6th, 2003, 12:37

1...2....3..... not it!

Center_Mid · August 6th, 2003, 12:48

[ QUOTE ]
there is also no doubt she was qualified

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what you're saying is that she was qualified, right? And she had 22 letters of recommendation from pilots who might have been family friends. I think I've read this story, or stories like it, on this website before (and I'm a relatively new guy around here). There's that one dude who got hired on at Chicago Express with something like 350TT because he was an intern and got to know the hiring folks. So what? More power to him. And more power to her. As pilot602 pointed out, there's no hint of actual nepotism here, other than the fact that she had the chance to get to know SWA pilots through being around her father (see post above). She was evaluated according to the same standards as everyone else and she was qualified - apparently more than qualified.

So what's the big deal? Did she have a networking advantage knowing a bunch of SWA pilots? Yes, but it's only an advantage, not a free pass. If she had been a crappy pilot, I'll bet that none of those pilots would have gone to bat for her. Everyone uses networking advantages, so why is it a career sin for her to do so?

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2003, 12:54

I'm still amazed that it's even an issue. If my father was a SWA captain and I was flying a Beech 1900, you bet your ass that I'd be pimping him 24/7 to help me get a job!

Big time.

And so would the rest of you!

Heck, I'll even guarantee that whenever Delta starts hiring again in 2027 that some of you will be pimping me for a letter of recc!

onthebeach · August 6th, 2003, 12:55

...that ALL of the people she beat out in the hiring group had those quals, Doug. Whether they are upset with her is a matter of conjecture; I would imagine that depends on their state of mental health, how much they've been drinking lately, and/or how much they have invested in the SWA "attitude."

shooter13 · August 6th, 2003, 12:58

I was meaning to ask you about that Doug... LOL

Center_Mid · August 6th, 2003, 13:18

[ QUOTE ]
I was meaning to ask you about that Doug... LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

tonyw · August 6th, 2003, 13:46

So, then, my friend who got hired at UAL because her dad worked there and helped open doors for her is a bad person, too? It doesn't matter now, because she's on furlough, but come on now.

Do you think that our current President would be President without daddy'a help? Do you think the guy who ran against him would have gotten there without his daddy's help?

Letting folks you know give you a hand when you need it is nothing new. That's what networking is all about.

You can be damn sure that if I've got an edge, a little something that gives me an advantage over lots of other very qualified candidates, I am going to use it. It could be that my dad plays golf with the hiring manager's father or that my brother knows his son from law school. I don't care, you can be sure I'm going to use it!

And if it's good enough for the two men who ran for President of the United States in 2000, well, it's good enough for me.

fly22 · August 6th, 2003, 13:50

Sounds like you have a bigger problem with Bush than the airlines, perhaps you should be politic!

Cav · August 6th, 2003, 14:01

I applaud her for using connections to get the job. You damn well better expect me to do the same when I have her qualifications. If I'm an employer hiring someone I'm going to hire the person with recomendations from people I trust and know as long as that person is obviously qualified....which she was. Not to mention, you can bet these recomendations were legitimate comparded to some friend of a friend type. I do think affirmative action played a role in providing her opportunites early in her career allowing her to build her resume for the SWA job which I don't like...I firmly against affirmative action. But, you can't fault the girl for being lucky to have an airline pilot for a father nor can you fault her for aggressively networking. Does everyone have the same networking opportunities, no, but such is life so GET OVER IT. Look me in the face and tell me that you wouldn't get your airline pilot father to help you land a job. RIGHHTTTT!!!

tonyw · August 6th, 2003, 14:03

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you have a bigger problem with Bush than the airlines, perhaps you should be politic!

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me? Seeing how I said that both Bush and Gore definitely relied on their daddy's help to get to a position where they could run for President, and said that if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me, I fail to see how you can draw that conclusion.

But I do have a problem with Bush and his ridiculous TFRs and FRZs and ADIZs. Anyone here disagree with me on that?

mtsu_av8er · August 6th, 2003, 14:03

I have a big problem with Bush.....

ready2fly · August 6th, 2003, 14:24

[ QUOTE ]
I have a big problem with Bush.....

[/ QUOTE ]
You big "politic", you!!

fly22 · August 6th, 2003, 14:34

I will admit that there are certain things that I disaprove of in regards to Bush, but much of the economic problems we are facing could not be controlled by the best Pres. out there. The economics are controlled by society not a single man or his cabinet. If everyone would have kept on living thier normal lives after 9/11 stock would not have dropped and the economy would have continued on strong.

August 6th, 2003, 08:27	#26
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: Cool news story about a Southwest Pilot ! [ QUOTE ] didn't say it sucked, nor that they didn't have the right to do it. [/ QUOTE ] I think you took that the wrong way. What I meant by that is that it "sucked" because you didn't get hired. You obviously wanted a job there or you wouldn't have applied. Am I right?

August 6th, 2003, 08:32	#27
shooter13 Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,952	Re: Very telling quote... I learned long ago in my first year in the Navy, never begrudge a person their good deal because someday you may have the opportunity and you damned sure better take it. So I have no problem with her getting a bit of favoritism because of all the people she has met. If you read the story it sure sounds like she has worked her butt off for years. If I was deciding if I was going to hire her and I have letters from 22 current employees telling me how great she is, I am going to take their advice. They are the ones out there doing the job and if they will stake their reputation on her, that is a huge up check in my book. Maybe flying is different but in my community who you are and what people I trust think about you means a heck of a lot more than your rank and any awards or honors you may have gotten.

August 6th, 2003, 08:47	#28
RedBelly Newbie Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 14	Re: Cool news story about a Southwest Pilot ! John Tenney, I was going to lay off your last 2 posts, but I checked your website & I think you can handle the truth. (Love the pic with Sean Hanninty!) First, you mentioned you have 200 hours in the 737-700. I would venture to guess that that meant "Jack-diddly-squat" in the interview. You could have 5000 hours PIC in the 737 and it still would not give you an advantage. Once you make it to the interview at SWA, everyone is equally qualified. Second, you mentined that at SWA it all comes down to who is on the pilot board. What makes this different then any other company in the world? It is the opinions of the people you meet during the interview process that determines whether or not you get hired. You can be the most qualified person in the world, but if the people you meet in the interview don't like you, you will not get the job. History is chock full of freindly, well mannered, and qualified people that did not get the job. On the flip side, their are millions of buttheads who for some reason or another make good first impressions and get the job. Southwest is also chock full of pilots who got hired on their second and third interviews, so keep trying!

August 6th, 2003, 08:50	#29
Lurker Posts: n/a	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] The playing field is not level [/ QUOTE ] welcome to life. So you're telling me, that when you meet the minimums of an airline, and let's say your uncle/friend walks in your resume with a few letters of recs, they offer you the job, you're going to turn it down? Didn't think so. I've had the opportunity to interview/hire people. Let me just say this, I interview someone I do not know that is highly qualified and gives a decent interview. Then I interview someone who comes in with tons of letters of recs, knows a few people around the office and is qualified, but may not have the experience of the first. I am going to hire the person who comes recommended. Mainly because you feel as if you already know the persons character before they walk into the door.

August 6th, 2003, 09:12	#30
JEP Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN (KFCM) (KMSP) Posts: 10,556 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Very telling quote... Jt, exactly. the way I see it, once you get the interview, your quals don't mean too much. If you get the interview, you have already passed that "check" in the process. It is now a matter of how the interview goes. Maybe one is wearing a blue tie and they don't like the color blue. At this point they will make the decison to hire/not hire you for any or no reason at all. I would only take issue with this process if they hire an individual that does not meet their req'd mins before someone else that does. Otherwise there is not much one can do about it.

August 6th, 2003, 10:47	#31
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: Cool news story about a Southwest Pilot ! I agree. Nepotism is not necessarily bad, as long as the people are qualified. To deny that is to deny family values.

August 6th, 2003, 11:14	#32
MarineNav Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 301	Re: Very telling quote... Hello, "The deciding factor in this woman getting her job was her choice of parents..." Wow, she chose her parents! That's so cool! (jk) Interesting points about nepotism. In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism? Regards, JR

August 6th, 2003, 11:23	#33
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,823 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] Interesting points about nepotism. In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism? [/ QUOTE ] Nope.

August 6th, 2003, 11:26	#34
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] In a way, isn't unionism also nepotism? [/ QUOTE ] No. A union has no bearing on whether an individual is hired. It only protects the indivdual's rights once they become an employee. And in most places the employee even has a choice as to join the union or not. Nepotism is the practice of favortism in getting a job/position in relation to family members already in the organization. I.E. The mayor gives the job of "sewer manager" or "parks and recreation manager" to his son and the other position to his wife, which in and of itself is still not nepotism, but when other qualified applicants were not fairly considered, nor any effort made to offer the positions to other applicants, that is nepotism. It generally only comes into legal play in city/government jobs. In the prvate sector there is more leeway. In fact, this whole thing about this very story being a case of nepotism is hogwash. Why? Because the father had no direct bearing on the hiring process other than his recomendation - which he could give to anyone and still can. Now, if he (and the 22 recs she had) were the hiring board, a case for nepotism could be made a little easier.

August 6th, 2003, 12:22	#35
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: Very telling quote... [quoteI want to hear from the first person who will be foolish enough to claim that her technical qualifications and her level of experience exceeded every one in her interview group who was not hired...then we will know who the first liar is. [/ QUOTE ] I think that it is pretty safe to say that there is an upper limit to how much "more qualified" one person can be for a job than another person - flying or otherwise. There's much more than technical qualifications that come into play when you're looking for somebody to fill a position. During my military career, I had the opportunity (curse) to be involved in the reviews of several meritorious promotions, and was promoted myself meritoriously more than once. If you crunch the numbers and select only the people that have the highest scores in everything, well.....that could suck in the end. Ever consider that maybe she ws hired because she did well on the interview? Maybe that she had really good grades in school? Maybe it was deemed that she would make a better Southwest crewmember than the next guy with 6,000 turbine PIC, because he has an attitude problem....or whatever the reason was. Not everything is so cut and dry.....

August 6th, 2003, 12:29	#36
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: Very telling quote... Let's not forget that Cindy Hamilton and crew would have found it very difficult not to hire her. How would they explain that to her dad?

August 6th, 2003, 12:35	#37
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,823 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Very telling quote... How many of you that are upset with this lady have 737 type ratings, exceed SWA's minimum qualifications and have a fresh application on file with letters of reccomendation from pilots that shared operational experience with you?

August 6th, 2003, 12:37	#38
fly22 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UT, SLC Posts: 1,499	Re: Very telling quote... 1...2....3..... not it!

August 6th, 2003, 12:48	#39
Center_Mid Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 213	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] there is also no doubt she was qualified [/ QUOTE ] So, what you're saying is that she was qualified, right? And she had 22 letters of recommendation from pilots who might have been family friends. I think I've read this story, or stories like it, on this website before (and I'm a relatively new guy around here). There's that one dude who got hired on at Chicago Express with something like 350TT because he was an intern and got to know the hiring folks. So what? More power to him. And more power to her. As pilot602 pointed out, there's no hint of actual nepotism here, other than the fact that she had the chance to get to know SWA pilots through being around her father (see post above). She was evaluated according to the same standards as everyone else and she was qualified - apparently more than qualified. So what's the big deal? Did she have a networking advantage knowing a bunch of SWA pilots? Yes, but it's only an advantage, not a free pass. If she had been a crappy pilot, I'll bet that none of those pilots would have gone to bat for her. Everyone uses networking advantages, so why is it a career sin for her to do so?

August 6th, 2003, 12:54	#40
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,823 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Very telling quote... I'm still amazed that it's even an issue. If my father was a SWA captain and I was flying a Beech 1900, you bet your ass that I'd be pimping him 24/7 to help me get a job! Big time. And so would the rest of you! Heck, I'll even guarantee that whenever Delta starts hiring again in 2027 that some of you will be pimping me for a letter of recc!

August 6th, 2003, 12:55	#41
onthebeach Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 22	I imagine... ...that ALL of the people she beat out in the hiring group had those quals, Doug. Whether they are upset with her is a matter of conjecture; I would imagine that depends on their state of mental health, how much they've been drinking lately, and/or how much they have invested in the SWA "attitude."

August 6th, 2003, 12:58	#42
shooter13 Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,952	Re: I imagine... I was meaning to ask you about that Doug... LOL

August 6th, 2003, 13:18	#43
Center_Mid Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 213	Re: I imagine... [ QUOTE ] I was meaning to ask you about that Doug... LOL [/ QUOTE ]

August 6th, 2003, 13:46	#44
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,165	Re: Very telling quote... So, then, my friend who got hired at UAL because her dad worked there and helped open doors for her is a bad person, too? It doesn't matter now, because she's on furlough, but come on now. Do you think that our current President would be President without daddy'a help? Do you think the guy who ran against him would have gotten there without his daddy's help? Letting folks you know give you a hand when you need it is nothing new. That's what networking is all about. You can be damn sure that if I've got an edge, a little something that gives me an advantage over lots of other very qualified candidates, I am going to use it. It could be that my dad plays golf with the hiring manager's father or that my brother knows his son from law school. I don't care, you can be sure I'm going to use it! And if it's good enough for the two men who ran for President of the United States in 2000, well, it's good enough for me.

August 6th, 2003, 13:50	#45
fly22 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UT, SLC Posts: 1,499	Re: Very telling quote... Sounds like you have a bigger problem with Bush than the airlines, perhaps you should be politic!

August 6th, 2003, 14:01	#46
Cav Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Let me look, I forgot. Posts: 637	Re: Very telling quote... I applaud her for using connections to get the job. You damn well better expect me to do the same when I have her qualifications. If I'm an employer hiring someone I'm going to hire the person with recomendations from people I trust and know as long as that person is obviously qualified....which she was. Not to mention, you can bet these recomendations were legitimate comparded to some friend of a friend type. I do think affirmative action played a role in providing her opportunites early in her career allowing her to build her resume for the SWA job which I don't like...I firmly against affirmative action. But, you can't fault the girl for being lucky to have an airline pilot for a father nor can you fault her for aggressively networking. Does everyone have the same networking opportunities, no, but such is life so GET OVER IT. Look me in the face and tell me that you wouldn't get your airline pilot father to help you land a job. RIGHHTTTT!!!

August 6th, 2003, 14:03	#47
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,165	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] Sounds like you have a bigger problem with Bush than the airlines, perhaps you should be politic! [/ QUOTE ] Excuse me? Seeing how I said that both Bush and Gore definitely relied on their daddy's help to get to a position where they could run for President, and said that if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me, I fail to see how you can draw that conclusion. But I do have a problem with Bush and his ridiculous TFRs and FRZs and ADIZs. Anyone here disagree with me on that?

August 6th, 2003, 14:03	#48
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: Very telling quote... I have a big problem with Bush.....

August 6th, 2003, 14:24	#49
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: Very telling quote... [ QUOTE ] I have a big problem with Bush..... [/ QUOTE ] You big "politic", you!!

August 6th, 2003, 14:34	#50
fly22 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UT, SLC Posts: 1,499	Re: Very telling quote... I will admit that there are certain things that I disaprove of in regards to Bush, but much of the economic problems we are facing could not be controlled by the best Pres. out there. The economics are controlled by society not a single man or his cabinet. If everyone would have kept on living thier normal lives after 9/11 stock would not have dropped and the economy would have continued on strong.

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