How legal is it?

[cypilot77]

Well, i heard so many people that fly together and both log the time. From what i know so far, you can only log the time that you are the PIC of the airplane. in other words it is illegal for both pilots to log the whole time flying together. If im wrong please correct me.
So my question is, if the above statement is true, how come there are flight schools that sell flight time, for example 100 hours multi-engine for $10000 and have two people flying at the time, and everybody knows about it? Meaning you can see the ads online or in magazines?

[meritflyer]

Two approptiately rated pilots can both log PIC time when one is acting as a safety pilot. This is how the schools get away with marketing such programs.

[Derek_S]

What those schools do is put someone under the hood to fly the plane (sole manipulator of the controls, gets to log PIC) while the safety pilot who is looking outside is acting as PIC (therefore gets to log it as PIC too).

[bdhill1979]

From what I have heard (from someone working at one of these airlines) some airlines do not look too favorably on your resume if 50% of your flight time is safety pilot time. The idea being that acting as safety pilot is not really developing your own skills other than looking for traffic.

Not to say all airlines look at things this way, some are too desperate to fill seats to be picky, but a few can be selective.

[PGT]

American Eagle doesn't count Safety Pilot time.

Question...in the logbook, if you are acting as a Safety Pilot do you put Safety Pilot in the comments section?

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by PGT

Question...in the logbook, if you are acting as a Safety Pilot do you put Safety Pilot in the comments section?

I do, but I don't see anything in the FAR that says the safety pilot has to specifically log it. Just the person logging the sim Inst time has to have the Safety pilot's name.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by cypilot77

Well, i heard so many people that fly together and both log the time. From what i know so far, you can only log the time that you are the PIC of the airplane. in other words it is illegal for both pilots to log the whole time flying together. If im wrong please correct me.
So my question is, if the above statement is true, how come there are flight schools that sell flight time, for example 100 hours multi-engine for $10000 and have two people flying at the time, and everybody knows about it? Meaning you can see the ads online or in magazines?

Because the FAA separates the conditions for logging PIC fro the requirements for acting as PIC (go figure), there are a couple of situations in which FAR 61.51 permits more than one pilot to log PIC on the same flight. The safety pilot acting as PIC is one. Giving flight instruction to a rated pilot is another. Technically, although I doubt they care, ATPs acting as PIC in an ATP-required op is another.

For the flight schools, chances are that they are talking about either safety pilot time or instructor time. Technically legal, but that second one can backfire, as it did in this case, where both pilots got their certificates revoked:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/do...ation/4008.PDF

[Ramsey]

Originally Posted by PGT

American Eagle doesn't count Safety Pilot time.

Question...in the logbook, if you are acting as a Safety Pilot do you put Safety Pilot in the comments section?

The sole manipulator is supposed to log the name of the person who was his safety pilot and vice-versa.

[GlideSlope]

Ok, so airlines frown on safety pilot time but they will hire somebody with no actual multi...



Summary of qualifications: CFI, CFII, MEI Total: 1,100 Hood/Sim IFR: 112, no actual Multi: 102
Where you offered the job? Yes
Pilot Interview Profile: (Taken from willflyforfood.cc)

[milski]

Originally Posted by GlideSlope

Sim IFR: 112, no actual Multi: 102

I think that's supposed to be Sim IFR 112, Actual IFR: no (0) and Multi:102 which seems to be typical.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Ramsey

The sole manipulator is supposed to log the name of the person who was his safety pilot and vice-versa.

Actually, the sole manipulator needs to log the name of their safety pilot, but not vice-versa.

There is no requirement for the safety pilot to mark their time as "safety pilot" time, the name of the person they were safety pilot for, or any such thing.

[OneNineHundy]

What a joke, how much can one learn from looking outside, sure there may be some benefit but not 100% of the time logged. Here in NZ only the sole manipulator can log the time, safety pilot? No just out of the goodness of their heart.

[Ramsey]

Originally Posted by jrh

Actually, the sole manipulator needs to log the name of their safety pilot, but not vice-versa.

There is no requirement for the safety pilot to mark their time as "safety pilot" time, the name of the person they were safety pilot for, or any such thing.

Sounds too logical to be true.

So how would you justify PIC time if you never touched the controls?

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by Ramsey

Sounds too logical to be true.

So how would you justify PIC time if you never touched the controls?

I log PIC as a flight instructor, and a lot of flights, I never touch the controls. Who is ultimately responsible if there is an emergency? The person ACTING as PIC. They are taking on a HUGE responsibility.

[Fly4Pay]

From FAR Part 61

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot--

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under Sec. 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating

Now, looking at this, I see no allowance for the "safety pilot" to log PIC time while another pilot is flying. So I'd say they're skating on some pretty thin ice.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by Ramsey

Sounds too logical to be true.

So how would you justify PIC time if you never touched the controls?

Because you =were=- safety pilot acting as PIC and the rule says you may log that as PIC time. On the other hand, the rule doesn't say you have to note that you were the safety pilot in the remarks section any more than the rule says that you have to note "I was the sole manipulator" in the remarks. Your putting the numbers in the PIC column is your certification that you meet one of the 61.51(e) categories.

(That said, like others, I note when I have been safety pilot - mostly to be able to verify the flying pilot's log entry is a question ever came up with his logbook)

Who is ultimately responsible if there is an emergency

mojo, this statement is irrelevant and should be avoided when talking about logging PIC. Your example is a good one. A CFI logging PIC has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility for the flight. To give an extreme example, lets say a CFI who hasn't has a FR or medical 10 years dues to a medical condition goes up with a current ATP to help the ATP brush up on his instrument proficiency in IMC (no hood) in the ATP's own airplane, a make and model the CFI has never flown. You'd hardly say that the CFI is responsible for the the flight, yet the CFI can log the flight as PIC.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

From FAR Part 61
Now, looking at this, I see no allowance for the "safety pilot" to log PIC time while another pilot is flying. So I'd say they're skating on some pretty thin ice.

It's this part:

==============================
Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
==============================

The "regulations under which the flight is conducted" is satisfied by 91.109(b) which requires a safety pilot for simulated IMC operations.

There is a small flaw in the logic, but FAA Legal has said that putting the two together means the safety pilot who is acting as PIC may log it as PIC time. The letter opinion goes back almost 15 years. Here's a link to it on the FAA Legal web site.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...1993/Hicks.rtf

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by OneNineHundy

What a joke, how much can one learn from looking outside, sure there may be some benefit but not 100% of the time logged. Here in NZ only the sole manipulator can log the time, safety pilot? No just out of the goodness of their heart.

I learn more flying with other pilots than I ever do putting around by myself.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

It's this part:

==============================
Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
==============================

The "regulations under which the flight is conducted" is satisfied by 91.109(b) which requires a safety pilot for simulated IMC operations.

There is a small flaw in the logic, but FAA Legal has said that putting the two together means the safety pilot who is acting as PIC may log it as PIC time. The letter opinion goes back almost 15 years. Here's a link to it on the FAA Legal web site.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...1993/Hicks.rtf

i thought that could be logged as SIC and not PIC?

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

mojo, this statement is irrelevant and should be avoided when talking about logging PIC. Your example is a good one. A CFI logging PIC has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility for the flight. To give an extreme example, lets say a CFI who hasn't has a FR or medical 10 years dues to a medical condition goes up with a current ATP to help the ATP brush up on his instrument proficiency in IMC (no hood) in the ATP's own airplane, a make and model the CFI has never flown. You'd hardly say that the CFI is responsible for the the flight, yet the CFI can log the flight as PIC.

My example was meant towards student pilots who aren't rated for the aircraft. Later in their training, I hardly touch the controls, but I am responsible for the flight. Also in your example, how is the CFI acting as an authorized instructor, if he is not giving instruction?

For your example, I make sure when I do fly with a rated pilot, that we establish WHO is the PIC during the passenger briefing, and who will handle emergencies, etc...

My whole point was simply that the person ACTING as PIC is responsible for the safety of the flight, so they are not getting time simply to sit there, they are taking on responsibility.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i thought that could be logged as SIC and not PIC?

Two separate scenarios:

1. If the safety pilot is the one who is acting as pilot in command for the flight, the safety pilot may log the time in the PIC column.

2. If the flying pilot is acting as pilot in command for the flight, the safety pilot may log the time as SIC.

There is a difference in the qualifications needed in the two scenarios. If the safety pilot is acting as PIC, she needs to meet all of the qualifications for acting as PIC (and the pilots both need to agree on who is in charge). If the safety pilot is not acting as PIC, all she needs are the proper ratings and a medical.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

My example was meant towards student pilots who aren't rated for the aircraft. Later in their training, I hardly touch the controls, but I am responsible for the flight. Also in your example, how is the CFI acting as an authorized instructor, if he is not giving instruction?

In my example, he =is= giving instruction.

==============================
a CFI ... goes up with a current ATP to help the ATP brush up on his instrument proficiency in IMC
==============================

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

It's this part:

==============================
Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
==============================

The "regulations under which the flight is conducted" is satisfied by 91.109(b) which requires a safety pilot for simulated IMC operations.

There is a small flaw in the logic, but FAA Legal has said that putting the two together means the safety pilot who is acting as PIC may log it as PIC time. The letter opinion goes back almost 15 years. Here's a link to it on the FAA Legal web site.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...1993/Hicks.rtf

OK, well... fair enough!

[OneNineHundy]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I learn more flying with other pilots than I ever do putting around by myself.

Thats a fair point but I don't see how you can justify logging 100% of the time.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by OneNineHundy

Thats a fair point but I don't see how you can justify logging 100% of the time.

Well, really the safety pilot can't log 100% of the time unless the sole manipulator wears the hood from engine start to shut-down.