Blue Angels crash

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by JEP

check the video here if you haven't seen it. You can see the a/c make a sharp left bank turning to join the others and then it drops.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18248797/

...they appear to have edited out the plane goign down.....

I went to CNN they have the footage still. I'm thinking he either G-locked or the flight control system took a dump. He definitely didn't have enough time to eject due to his altitude.

[FiveO]

Thats horrible. At least he was doing what he loved. I would really like to know the background of the pilot. Obviously these are not some random people flying, it would be cool to know his past with the service. Rest in Peace.

These last few days have not been to good with aviation. We had 2 planes go down in FL killing a total of 9 and now this.

[H46Bubba]

Here's his bio:

Lieutenant Commander Kevin Davis is a native of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and graduated from Reading Memorial High School in 1992 where he played football and was active with the Civil Air Patrol. He attended Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, earning a Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical Science with honors in 1996.
Kevin reported to Naval Air Station (NAS) Pensacola, Florida, for Officer Candidate School and aviation indoctrination in September 1996. He completed primary flight training at NAS Corpus Christi, Texas, and transferred to NAS Meridian, Mississippi, for intermediate and advanced flight training. While there, he flew the T-2C Buckeye and TA-4J Skyhawk, and received his wings of gold in June 1999.
Kevin reported to Fighter Squadron 101 (VF-101) at NAS Oceana, Virginia, for training in the F-14 Tomcat and was the “Top Stick” in his class. In July 2000 he reported to the VF-11 “Red Rippers” where he completed deployments aboard the aircraft carriers USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) and USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67). While with the “Red Rippers,” Kevin served as the airframes/corrosion branch officer, air-to-ground training officer and head landing signals officer. His deployments included extended operations in the North Arabian Sea and Arabian Gulf in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
In July 2003, Kevin transitioned to the F/A-18 Hornet through Strike Fighter Squadron 125 (VFA-125) at NAS Lemoore, California, and then reported to the Fighter Composite Squadron (VFC-12) “Omars,” stationed at NAS Oceana, Virginia. While at VFC-12, Kevin served as a Navy adversary pilot providing valuable air-to-air training for fleet squadrons. In December of 2004, Kevin graduated from the United States Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN) as an adversary pilot. During his tour at VFC-12, Kevin worked as the schedules officer, legal officer, FRS/SFARP officer and assistant operations officer.
Kevin joined the Blue Angels in September 2005. He has accumulated more than 2,500 flight hours and 200 carrier arrested landings. His decorations include the Air Medal, two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, and various personal and unit awards.

[BCTAv8r]

Originally Posted by Airdale

With as good as the Blue Angel pilots are, I would find it very hard to believe it was pilot error, especially since they weren't doing any knife edges and only one aircraft was involved.

While I agree that they are outstanding pilots, you cannot rule out pilot error. Remember the Thunderbirds incident not too long ago?

[frog_flyer]

There are zero/zero ejection seats which can punch you out safely from 0 AGL and 0 knots.

I don't know if the Blues had them, because I think they get old airplanes that are nearing their service lives. It would make sense that they get good ejection seats though, since they are so near the ground all the time.

RIP.

Why the heck is there no video? People not bringin' cameras to shows anymore?

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

There are zero/zero ejection seats which can punch you out safely from 0 AGL and 0 knots.

I don't know if the Blues had them, because I think they get old airplanes that are nearing their service lives. It would make sense that they get good ejection seats though, since they are so near the ground all the time.

RIP.

Why the heck is there no video? People not bringin' cameras to shows anymore?

It depends on what attitude you're at. If you're in a steep diving bank, you're going to get blasted directly at trees and the ground. If you're G-locked you most definitley not going to eject at all or if you wake up.

CNN has video of crash.

[aloft]

The crash occurred during the rejoin following their inverted bomb-burst (I don't know what they call the maneuver). #6 has to make a course reversal to rejoin the delta formation, and thus has the tightest turn to make of the six. Depending on how hard he pulled, I'd concur with the G-LOC scenario. Should be interesting to see if the Blues revisit their stance on g-suits, the T-birds still wear them for every flight.

[falconvalley]

The T-Birds can wear them because of the location of the stick. It's possible that he Gd out, but I'd put more money on some kind of mechanical error or conscious pilot error.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by aloft

Should be interesting to see if the Blues revisit their stance on g-suits, the T-birds still wear them for every flight.

The Tbirds can wear the G suit because it doesn't interfere with the control stick (side stick). The Blues do not use the suit because inflating and deflating would allow less precise control needed for close in maneuvers (center mounted stick).

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by aloft

The crash occurred during the rejoin following their inverted bomb-burst (I don't know what they call the maneuver). #6 has to make a course reversal to rejoin the delta formation, and thus has the tightest turn to make of the six. Depending on how hard he pulled, I'd concur with the G-LOC scenario. Should be interesting to see if the Blues revisit their stance on g-suits, the T-birds still wear them for every flight.

The maneuver is called the "Fleur-de-lis" and its the final maneuver before coming in for the break pass, where they come in for the carrier break and land.

The Blues are pretty good at taking G's, especially without g-suits. There's a clip from Speed and Angels where an average fighter pilot rides alog in the back of #7 and he blacks out several times with the Blue pilot making jokes about it.

Here's the shortcut to the clip.

http://www.speedandangels.com/traile...ffect_of_gs-lg

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

The maneuver is called the "Fleur-de-lis" and its the final maneuver before coming in for the break pass, where they come in for the carrier break and land.

The Blues are pretty good at taking G's, especially without g-suits. There's a clip from Speed and Angels where an average fighter pilot rides alog in the back of #7 and he blacks out several times with the Blue pilot making jokes about it.

Here's the shortcut to the clip.

http://www.speedandangels.com/traile...ffect_of_gs-lg

Being from an Air Force town (Tucson Az.) we rarely ever got the Blues in town. The Thunderbirds were a more common site.

A few years ago maybe they came to town and I saw the "carrier break" with all six planes in a straight line and each one going vertical and pulling over sharply to line up with the downwing. Sweet to say the least.

I have always loved the Blue Angels more than the T-birds. First because I have always liked the F/A-18 more than the F-16, but definitely more after seeing the carrier break first hand!

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Being from an Air Force town (Tucson Az.) we rarely ever got the Blues in town. The Thunderbirds were a more common site.

A few years ago maybe they came to town and I saw the "carrier break" with all six planes in a straight line and each one going vertical and pulling over sharply to line up with the downwing. Sweet to say the least.

I have always loved the Blue Angels more than the T-birds. First because I have always liked the F/A-18 more than the F-16, but definitely more after seeing the carrier break first hand!

F-14's look better in the break, especially at sea!

[aloft]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

The Blues are pretty good at taking G's, especially without g-suits. There's a clip from Speed and Angels where an average fighter pilot rides alog in the back of #7 and he blacks out several times with the Blue pilot making jokes about it.

That's a flight surgeon, not a pilot. The pilot calls him "Doc" once, the subtitling gets it wrong. Military demo pilots, be they Blues, T-birds, or ACC demo team guys, are just rank-and-file--"average fighter pilots" themselves. The real "masters of disaster" (IOW, a fighter pilot's fighter pilot) would never dream of volunteering for such duty. You'll find those guys teaching in the weapons schools, in the adversary (aggressor) squadrons, or doing operational test & eval. Doing a tour with the Blues or T-birds is how "average fighter pilots" get those plum assignments afterward.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

F-14's look better in the break, especially at sea!

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by aloft

That's a flight surgeon, not a pilot. The pilot calls him "Doc" once, the subtitling gets it wrong. Military demo pilots, be they Blues, T-birds, or ACC demo team guys, are just rank-and-file--"average fighter pilots" themselves. The real "masters of disaster" (IOW, a fighter pilot's fighter pilot) would never dream of volunteering for such duty. You'll find those guys teaching in the weapons schools, in the adversary (aggressor) squadrons, or doing operational test & eval. Doing a tour with the Blues or T-birds is how "average fighter pilots" get those plum assignments afterward.

He's a regular Naval Aviator. His name tag has regular wings not Flight Surgeon wings.

It's pretty much a shoe in to get O-6 when you're tour as the Blue's C.O. is done. I also think the pilots get guaranteed assignments of their choice at the end of their tour with the Blue's.

[Tram]

Originally Posted by aloft

"average fighter pilots" themselves.

A good friend of my pops was a blue.. They both thought that comment was pretty funny..

Maybe average in the idea of they perform the same duties while they are not being a Blue, there is nothing average about the skills they possess in the cockpit.. You take your "average fighter pilot" and you'd have crashes like more than 26 times over the 60 year history of the Blues..

There is a very, very good chance the plane had a control malfunction and CMDR Davis rode it to the ground to avoid collateral damage.. That is the kind of guy a Blue is.. Average? Doubtful..

RIP CMDR Davis..

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Tram

A good friend of my pops was a blue.. They both thought that comment was pretty funny..

Maybe average in the idea of they perform the same duties while they are not being a Blue, there is nothing average about the skills they possess in the cockpit.. You take your "average fighter pilot" and you'd have crashes like more than 26 times over the 60 year history of the Blues..

Um, ok. Know any weapons school instructors or 422 TES types? I do, and every one of em would laugh at me if I were to suggest they apply for the T-birds.

Do a search for MikeD's thoughts on the demo teams, and you'll find that most fighter pilots roll their eyes at "tactical loops to music". Yeah, it takes a lot of practice to get one's formation skills down that good, but formation skills are hardly the hallmark of a great fighter pilot.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by aloft

That's a flight surgeon, not a pilot. The pilot calls him "Doc" once, the subtitling gets it wrong. Military demo pilots, be they Blues, T-birds, or ACC demo team guys, are just rank-and-file--"average fighter pilots" themselves. The real "masters of disaster" (IOW, a fighter pilot's fighter pilot) would never dream of volunteering for such duty. You'll find those guys teaching in the weapons schools, in the adversary (aggressor) squadrons, or doing operational test & eval. Doing a tour with the Blues or T-birds is how "average fighter pilots" get those plum assignments afterward.

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Here's his bio:

Originally Posted by aloft

Um, ok. Know any weapons school instructors or 422 TES types? I do, and every one of em would laugh at me if I were to suggest they apply for the T-birds.

Do a search for MikeD's thoughts on the demo teams, and you'll find that most fighter pilots roll their eyes at "tactical loops to music". Yeah, it takes a lot of practice to get one's formation skills down that good, but formation skills are hardly the hallmark of a great fighter pilot.

True, but if you look in CMDR Davis's bio, it lists him as having been an adversary pilot. That's my lazy example. Outfits like the Blue Angels select pilots who fit their overall ideal of what a demo pilot should be. They won't select pilots are excellent sticks, with tons of metal on their chest who are major jerks. That also doesn't mean that you have to be the best pilot ever to be a demo pilot. A demo pilot doesn't use all the skills they learned in school, but they do have to pay attention to detail.

[Tram]

I used to know a weapons school instructor, but he's been gone for a few years..

Also, you are right, on all counts.. I'm going to to argue that.. There is a difference between a true fighter pilot and someone who does "loops" to music.. Very different skill sets..

I didn't say they they were the best on the planet..

All I was getting at was, to call them average is a bit of a strech, don't you think?

I guess I shoulda put a few more "emoticons" or whatever in the post, now that I re-read it, it sounds like it was a jab, it wasn't meant to be..

[Okie_Pilot]

If you watch the msnbc video, it says that the plane went down by some houses and 8 people on the ground were injured. From the way the video put it, I believe he tried to steer the plane away from the houses and people.

Oh, and 'aloft'. I believe the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds for this matter, are a little more than "average fighter pilots".

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Tram

I didn't say they they were the best on the planet..

All I was getting at was, to call them average is a bit of a strech, don't you think?

No, I really don't. Regular everyday fighter pilot stuff is hard. A lot harder than somewhat tame (by comparison) maneuvers and formation work. Yeah, the formation stuff requires some precise flying, but it's not as difficult as, say, an 8 v 8 engagement (yes, that's sixteen fighters buzzing around a relatively small piece of sky trying to kill each other).

I think pretty much any fighter pilot is capable of flying with the Blues or T-birds, given the same training each of those team members receives. The main qualification to become a member of one of those teams is "could I spend 9 months on the road with that guy?", not "how well can he fly an aileron roll?" Yes, attention to detail is required, but that's normal for military flying, where "bombs on target, on time" means to the yard, and to the second.

Where the hell are you, MikeD? I need some backup here, maing!

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by aloft

That's a flight surgeon, not a pilot. The pilot calls him "Doc" once, the subtitling gets it wrong. Military demo pilots, be they Blues, T-birds, or ACC demo team guys, are just rank-and-file--"average fighter pilots" themselves. The real "masters of disaster" (IOW, a fighter pilot's fighter pilot) would never dream of volunteering for such duty. You'll find those guys teaching in the weapons schools, in the adversary (aggressor) squadrons, or doing operational test & eval. Doing a tour with the Blues or T-birds is how "average fighter pilots" get those plum assignments afterward.

In the Navy and Marine Corps, Being a member of the Blue Angels is a really sweet deal that few would pass up!

[Tram]

Originally Posted by aloft

Regular everyday fighter pilot stuff is hard. A lot harder than somewhat tame (by comparison) maneuvers and formation work.

Trust me, I've heard all about it.. I'm 3rd generation pilot.. 1st generation civvy pilot..

Originally Posted by aloft

I think pretty much any fighter pilot is capable of flying with the Blues or T-birds, given the same training each of those team members receives..

What you have just said here is.. If you take an average fighter pilot and train him, he can fly with the Blues/Birds... That training is what makes him no longer average..

I'm not saying the Blues are the end all be all - God's gift to aviation guys..
What I am saying is they are not average... Were they average when they applied for the Blues? No doubt..

It's sorta like saying.. 422 TES and Weapons school instructors are... average fighter pilots... They are not..

[falconvalley]

Aloft, while what you're saying about the style of flying in the Blue Angels is true, what you're saying in a broad generalization about the pilots is not. Most people who aren't familiar put them very high up on a pedestal and that's the whole point of the team. They want to attract people. The point of the team is not to travel the country, making sure that people learn that arial demos are superior to actual combat or vice versa. We know this. I realize that some people don't put that kind of flying real high on their list of things they'd love to do as a military aviator, but I'm sure that some dream about it when they're deployed. There's nothing wrong with recruiting and allowing kids to dream and being a member of the team is not a career killer. If some roll their eyes at it, that's fine. It's not for everybody, whether they are a great pilot or not.

[H46Bubba]

It's been the Navy's #1 recruiting tool since 1946. These guys are who are handpicked by both teams are not the best of the best, but are the cream of the crop. There are both representatives of their service and ambassadors of the United States, when they are overseas. Their job is not to show the public how to engage another aircraft in combat, but to take those maneuvers and put them to choreographed formation flight to show the precise manueverablity and speed of the aircraft. I know in the Navy it's considered harship duty. Their away from home four days out of the week, every week for 10 months, then include the training in El Centro from Jan to March. Do that routine for three sesons. That's more than a normal pilot would deploy in a four year sea tour. Of course there aren't a lot of pilots jumping at the bit to get on with the Blues. Who in there right mind would want to be away from family and home for that amount of time. Those that are accepted and fly for the Blues are rewarded for their time and dedication, by promotions, and choice duty assignments when their tour with the Blues is complete.