How important is your degree?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by CRoper

That is true assuming that you can live on the income of a student. I guess I am not really regretting "having" my degree, I just wish I would have either gotten a different one, (outside of aviation) and more importantly I wish I had focused more on my flight training instead of the degree.

Why aren't you CFI-ing full time so you can get the job you want?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by seagull

Let's see how Tgrayson responds to this one....

I will say that we've made some signicant progress. My goal was to get people off the inane notion that "anything outside of majoring in aviation" is the only smart thing to do. Nobody is still arguing that, and the entire issue is coming into better focus so when this question comes up again in a few months, more sensible answers might be forthcoming.

I'm glad you took time to get a snide little poke in at me, makes me feel special.


To respond to TGs "note". I do this very thing now. I handle virtual problems on the road while my boss handles anything "real" onsite if needed. When I am home I do all the grunt work at 30 bucks an hour with one hour minimum per contact. Not a bad gig, but I probably got the only and only IT job in the world that does that, so ya'll disregard and major in basket weaving, gonna need lots of baskets in the future, got to ride to hell in something.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I handle virtual problems on the road while my boss handles anything "real" onsite if needed. When I am home I do all the grunt work at 30 bucks an hour with one hour minimum per contact. Not a bad gig, but I probably got the only and only IT job in the world that does that

Didn't say there weren't such jobs, just that they're rare. To portray it as a viable job opportunity for most people is unrealistic. And you don't generally walk out of college qualified to get them.

Most people in the IT industry would love to work from home, or from a laptop on the beach, but I don't see those jobs posted on Monster.com.

How did you get your job? Was it one that you already had when you started flying?

[CRoper]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Why aren't you CFI-ing full time so you can get the job you want?

That is my plan and has been my plan. Had I known then what I know now I would have altered my course.
I got my CFI last fall, and submitted my resume to the local college where I got my degree from, as well as did all of my flight training at. I was counting on a possible 1-2 month hiring process because this school has the reputation for taking forever to get things done when hiring new CFI's.

Just after I went to the first new hire meeting, they said they would conduct official interviews at the beginning of the next month, (which was January, and I had already been hanging on for the two months I thought I would.) Well, from that point on, it was the runaround and everytime I talked to someone they said it should only be a week or so before they got the interviews lined up. I guess the hold up was that they were totally restructuring the program and hired 4 new chief CFI's for each part of their curriculum, and until they got that all settled, they couldn't hire any new CFI's. They got that done and finally called all of us for the interviews. This turned into a 3 part interview that spanned over a month. After this they took over 3 weeks to send letters of approval or dissapproval. I guess out of like 20 guys that interviewed, they hired 5 initially, and put another 6 or so into a "pool". The rest supposedly received disapproval letters. I say it in parenthesis because we were not given a number indicating our status in the pool, or any official hire notice by the school. So there is no commitment on their part other than a verbal one that those of us that did not receive a dissapproval letter and did not get hired are in a pool, and will be the first new CFI's hired when other CFI's leave, which expires in 6 months, after which I would need to reinterview. At the rate they are losing CFI's they should easily go through the pool before this happens, but given the amount of time I have already invested it is a really hard pill to swallow.

So Here I am 6 months after getting my CFI with 0 dual given, a huge time commitment already invested to this school that I am finding very hard to walk away from, because it could be tomorrow that I get called to come on as the next intructor. I know the first obvious answer is "Why in the hell didn't you get a job instructing somewhere else?" My answer to that is that I would prefer to instruct at the school I applied at, I have a lot of friends there, and there really aren't any other schools within the valley close enough to CFI at, without atleast a 40 minute drive both ways, and that would be at FBOs or smaller flight schools that I wouldn't really be able to stay busy enough to earn a living.

Once you get on at the school I have been waiting for so long for, you are pretty busy. I would still need a second job, which I already have in place that gives me 32 hours between saturday and sunday. I have been working that and one other tech support job waiting for this mirage to become a reality.

To be honest I have all but given up on that job, and have been looking for a "real" job in the meantime that pays more just so I don't have to look at a freaking computer screen 65 hours a week helping total idiots learn that there IS actually a function on their computer called right click. (Actually that usually only applies to AOL users.)

Bottom line is there are no CFI slots that are close enough for my tastes other than this school.
I have a wife and 2 kids to provide for, which limits my options. (not a regret btw)
I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't have just done the unthinkable and done one of those programs that makes me a 250 hr wonder in the cockpit of an RJ, instead of a 350 hr new CFI that can't get a job, hasn't flown since the checkride, and can't get hired at the very school that did his training at. (Trust me SJS is not the motivator there.)
To say at the very least I am totally frustrated, and my wife (TheWife) is beyond frustrated. And I don't blame her.

Looking back one of my biggest frustrations is that the counselors at the school did not even hint that I may want to get a degree in something else other than avation, in fact it seemed as though the only way to do flight training was to to the degree, which was total bs. It wasn't that way then, and it isn't that way now. In addition to that, both college and hs counselors were adimant that I needed a 4 year degree to be an airline pilot. Something I didn't find out the truth about until only a couple of years ago, and was a little late to change. Had I known I could have been working away at my ratings instead of working full time and taking 8-12 credits a semester taking forever to get the degree out of the way. Yes I was working on my ratings at the same time, but had I focused purely on them I would have been though a lot faster. (years actually)

So there is the long and short of it, sorry if you were just looking for a short answer, but it is a long story.

[Ian J]

That sucks! Can't believe that school is messing you over like that.

I know you probably have gone over all the bases, but I'll throw this out there... have you thought about at least part timing at one of those other schools to at least keep you in the air? Maybe one of them might be like my school where if you hunt down your own students they'll let you instruct...

Or just bite the bullet and move yourself to a busy flight school to instruct to mins - it would be a hardship and it would suck to be away from your family for a while - but at least you'd be making forward progress...

I dunno- I know you probably have worked it from every angle already.

Good luck!

[CRoper]

My plan at this point is to get a job that pays more in the meantime, which would allow me to spend less time at work and have more time for flight training and family. (Pretty much the 2 things in my life that are getting ignored right now.) Once I get that in place I am going to spend time getting my CFII and MEI and not use any sims so I am building time and staying current. At that time I will reassess my situation.
Hopefully other opportunities will have presented themselves by then.

[TheWife]

Hopefully other opportunities will have presented themselves by then.

Hopefully you will seek out other opportunities if not.

[CRoper]

That's a given baby....a given!

[seagull]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I'm glad you took time to get a snide little poke in at me, makes me feel special.

??? I don't think I singled anybody out at all, just the general prevailing "conventional wisdom" that aviation degrees are somehow a bad thing and shouldn't be considered for upcoming pilot wanna-be's.

[IndianaPilot]

Hey LuckyBambu here is a suggestion for you, and really this can go for anybody here that is kinda hung up what degree to pursue, that would give them a good back up plan if things went sour with their aviation careers. This seems to come up again and again, the subject of back up plans. My suggestion to anybody would be to go through EMT and then Paramedic training. I'm not only saying this because i'm a firefighter/medic and its what I do, but if you hear me out it should make sense. First off, the new training programs that are out there now actually do get you a full degree, as opposed to just a certification. Second, there are tons and tons and TONS of ambulance services all over the USA that are in great need for trained people. You can do it part time, and make your own schedule. This would be great for a pilot that only has certain days off he might want to work to supplement his pay. Fourth, it pays very decently. I'd say a good average for a street paramedic would be between $17 and $20 per hour, depending on where you are and who you work for. Fifth, I imagine it would look good on a resume, even for a flying job, having a candidate with experience handling emergencies, staying calm, thinking straight, working in a crew enviromnet, etc etc. Lastly, its a lot of fun ! You see a lot of excitment, get good adrenaline rushes, and when it's all said and done, a pretty good feeling of satisfaction especially when you've made a positive difference for somebody. I think it is really somethin guys on here should consider as far as a "backup" plan goes. The training program itself is somewhat of a pain, time consuming and intense at times, but it really pays off in the end. If anyone is interested I can give you more info. Even if you are still in high school, you can still start the EMT program, as long as you are 18 by the time you take the state or registry exam. After that you would start into the Paramedic program if you wanted, which is where the degree comes in.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by seagull

aviation degrees are somehow a bad thing and shouldn't be considered for upcoming pilot wanna-be's.

Perhaps the discussion shouldn't be about aviation degrees vs. other degrees, but focused on the idea of having some additional skill that can bring in revenue while 1) working for low pay, 2) working infrequently, or 3) furloughed.

A degree other than aviation may or may not be a part of this plan. The previous poster mentioned a narrowly targeted skills such as paramedic training. Maybe there are other things along this line that conveys an immediately useful skill that has flexible time demands?

[seagull]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Perhaps the discussion shouldn't be about aviation degrees vs. other degrees, but focused on the idea of having some additional skill that can bring in revenue while 1) working for low pay, 2) working infrequently, or 3) furloughed.

A degree other than aviation may or may not be a part of this plan. The previous poster mentioned a narrowly targeted skills such as paramedic training. Maybe there are other things along this line that conveys an immediately useful skill that has flexible time demands?

I just read that post, and the wheels were just beginning to turn in the same direction when I read your post. The true "back up" plans may, or may not, involve a degree in a different field. Certainly, some degrees will open more doors than others, the key is what the intention is. If someone is looking at a true "fall back", then they need to very carefully consider a real plan that will work. That excludes a lot of the degrees that are mostly advocated by pilots who are not that familiar with the particular industries. It eliminates any liberal arts degree, as those have no more (or less) value than an aviation degree, when it comes to jobs outside of aviation (an aviation degree does provide some benefit to someone who is pursuing aviation jobs, through both knowledge base and also networking opportunities).

There is also non-degree related training that could give someone an edge.

So, what are the degrees that might really be useful for a fallback? We have pretty much eliminated all the "obvious" ones, including the one I thought would be a good one, engineering (not that it isn't a very good choice for someone pursuing aviation for a career, especially if you think you might want to get involved in flight test or tech issues!!!).

A couple that come to mind now would be the paramedic one, suggested in the above post. Another would be a nursing degree. There seems to be a constant shortage and I would think (I don't know) that someone might be able to fit that in on an ad-hoc basis. Same with teaching. Neither pay especially well, and my guess that nursing offers flexibility is based on the fact that it is a predominantly female profession, and so health care facilities probably are making up for the lower $$ with non-monetary compensation in terms of flexibility (worth a lot more than most think!).

More suggestions that would actually work?

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by seagull

A couple that come to mind now would be the paramedic one, suggested in the above post. Another would be a nursing degree. There seems to be a constant shortage and I would think (I don't know) that someone might be able to fit that in on an ad-hoc basis. Same with teaching. Neither pay especially well, and my guess that nursing offers flexibility is based on the fact that it is a predominantly female profession, and so health care facilities probably are making up for the lower $$ with non-monetary compensation in terms of flexibility (worth a lot more than most think!).

I don't know what it takes to get established in nursing, but I know several nurses that basically work when they want to work. There is such an extreme shortage of nurses that many hospitals will take whatever they can get.

(Got to be careful not to overdo it, though. The pilot that went down with Senator Wellstone was a nurse on the side, and fatigue seems to have played a large role in the crash.)

[IndianaPilot]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

I don't know what it takes to get established in nursing, but I know several nurses that basically work when they want to work. There is such an extreme shortage of nurses that many hospitals will take whatever they can get.

(Got to be careful not to overdo it, though. The pilot that went down with Senator Wellstone was a nurse on the side, and fatigue seems to have played a large role in the crash.)

Yeah there are part time Nurses out there, and like you said many places lookin for people. Same with the Paramedic thing, tons of places that need people, and you can work when you want. As far as fatigue goes, yeah that can be a problem. Guess you just gotta budget your time to make sure your rested before you fly.

[seagull]

Thought I'd revive this thread with the following:

You Can Get a Job With Any Major


By Kate Lorenz, CareerBuilder.com Editor


What do these people have in common: Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, comedian and actor Steve Martin and former Attorney General Janet Reno?

None of these highly successful people ended up pursuing a career relative to their college major. Reno was a chemistry major, Greenspan studied music and Martin earned a degree in philosophy.

How can you expect to map your entire life with a college major when, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, the average person changes careers three times?

And, in search of the perfect course of study, 75 percent of students change majors at least once during their college years, according to Randy Miller, chairman of student counseling Web site Readyminds.

Don't worry. The biggest secret in career development is that you can get a job with any major, according to Donald Asher, career consultant and author of "How To Get Any Job With Any Major" (Ten Speed Press). Asher says that even though all majors may not supply equal preparation for all jobs, no job is out of reach simply because of your major.

You have more options than you think. Many students have tunnel vision when it comes to choosing their major - they pick their major on the assumption it's the only fast track to their lucrative dream job. Problem is, they might hate that major, do badly in it and subsequently rule out a career they might have been great at.

Employers do look at your major when considering your application, mainly because your major helps the employer determine the skills you'd bring to the organization. But other factors, especially your relevant experience, play a big role.

In fact, Asher adds, the top 10 characteristics corporate recruiters look for can be found in students of any major. They include:



Communication skills

Honesty/Integrity

Teamwork skills

Interpersonal skills

Motivation/initiative

Strong work ethic

Analytical skills

Flexibility/adaptability

Computer skills

Self-confidence


Additionally, post-baccalaureate studies provide specialization and internships provide work experience. These can define your road more significantly than undergraduate studies.

Here are some examples of real people who found success outside of their college majors:

Carly Fiorina, former chairperson and CEO of Hewlett-Packard Company, received a degree in medieval history and philosophy from Stanford.

James Gandolfini, Emmy award-winning actor, majored in communications at Rutgers.

Richard Gephardt, politician and former Presidential hopeful, earned a degree in speech from Northwestern University.

Hugh Hefner, founder of Playboy magazine, majored in philosophy at the University of Illinois.

Lee Iacocca, former head of Chrysler Motor Company, studied history at Lehigh University.

Mick Jagger, lead singer for the Rolling Stones, majored in economics at the London School of Economics.

Ashton Kutcher, actor, majored in biochemical engineering at the University of Iowa.

Sherry Lansing, chairman of Paramount Motion Picture Group, earned her bachelor's degree in English from Northwestern University.

Lucy Liu, actress, studied Asian Languages at the University of Michigan.

Sandra Day O'Connor, former Supreme Court Justice, majored in economics at Stanford.

Brad Pitt, actor and heartthrob, was two credits shy of a journalism degree from the University of Missouri.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California and actor, studied economics at the University of Wisconsin.

Denzel Washington, Oscar-winning actor, has a degree in journalism from Fordham University.


Kate Lorenz is the article and advice editor for CareerBuilder.com. She researches and writes about job search strategy, career management, hiring trends and workplace issues. Laura Morsch contributed to this article.
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[intern_mike]

For someone in my situation, an Aviation Science degree is ideal. I'm 22, have my 2-year AA, and I'm currently training at Flight Safety (part 141). By doing this, I can get into the airlines quicker (regional airlines don't require a degree), and then finish the degree on-line in about a year. What's so great about the Aviation Science degree is that if you have all of your ratings part 141, you've already completed a considerable chunk of the degree, something like 30 credits, but don't quote me. So now I'm only looking at roughly a year's worth of on-line classes while kickin it at a regional. By the time I'm ready for a jump to the majors, I'm all set.

[gromm44]

Im 9 credits short of my BA, but it would be a pain to go back to school right now. Do all the airlines want you to have the degree still or can you get by without it (at least at some?)

[777forever]

Originally Posted by gromm44

Im 9 credits short of my BA, but it would be a pain to go back to school right now. Do all the airlines want you to have the degree still or can you get by without it (at least at some?)

FINISH YOUR DEGREE! You have virtually no chance with any major airline without it!

[gromm44]

Wow, thats good to know. Not what I wanted to hear, but good to know.

[mhcasey]

Originally Posted by LuckyBambu

Also, how do airlines generally take foreign degrees? I can go to any of Japan's top schools for free, sponsored by their government, travel, food, medical, etc paid for and all.

Did you win the world national guitar hero championship or something? How the heck did a sophomore in highschool from Illinois get offered a free ride to Japan's top universities?! And masters there? With all expensies paid? And medical? Before this post goes any further, this should be explained because to be honest, it sounds like either a load of crap, or like someone is really pulling your leg. University of Tokyo may rank below Harvard in whatever poll you were looking at, but I assure you it is a million times harder to get into. You have to be a very very smart Japanese person to get in.

I would think very hard about going to school in a country that is 99.whatever% straight up Japanese people too. Not that I have anything against them, but dude you gotta be able to socialize with someone!

Also, if you're able to get into a school like the University of Tokyo, please, do not leave that education to enter aviation. Continue in whatever field you got your degree in, and in a few years buy your own King Air. Then a few years after that, get yourself a 707 and start hanging with Travolta.

[Nerdwing]

I'll chime in on this one. I have a 5 year old mechanical engineering degree, but have been working in an unrelated field since I got it. Facing the need to find a new job, I find my degree + no experience is not getting me too many interviews. Not that I regret the time I spent getting the degree. I'm somewhat interested in technology and it's given me the tools to answer my own questions about the mechanics of flight, for example. Still, I think it goes to show that if you get a degree with the hope that 10 years from now it'll be an insurance policy should you lose your flying job, it's probably wishful thinking. Almost any worthwhil job is going to have too many other applicants with demonstrated accomplishments/experience over and above simply having a degree.