A new regulation...

[dbakeg00]

I think someone should write a Reg (I can't believe that I'm asking for more regs) basically to the effect of "your flight training time + your time as a cfi must = 3 years (at the minimum) before you are allowed to fly a jet." Also, all accelerated pilot courses should be done away with. No amount of flight time can replace experience...which is minmized through these courses. Experience = tool to become a good pilot. Being a pilot has lost almost all of its "shine." People, in the pursuit of money, have whorred out our profession to make it seem as if anyone can do it. Maybe anyone can do it (not literally), but those who choose to do it should have to spill blood, sweat, and tears AND pay their dues (not money!) to get there. I'm still realitivly new to the field, but I am so sick of hearing every guy/girl with 250-1000 hours talk about the planes that he/she is already too good to fly (ie Beech 1900). You should have to be a CFI with a certain amount of dual given to fly a jet..end of story. I think that would weed alot of people out. Im all for the programs that help people to realize their dream to become pilots, but to make it easier to become an airline pilot than a manager at your local FAT food restaurant..that makes me sick. (no disrespect to managers at restaurants)

-Sorry I just needed to vent a little. "JC...not only where pilots can meet people and learn alot, but also where they can relieve a little stress!" (no charge for that new slogan Doug). Any other ideas about how we can start weeding people out...?

[surreal1221]

PFFT!!

Then our federal government would not be cuddling to big corporations (re: The Airlines).

[Baradium]

I'm a little lost one what being a CFI has to do with flying a jet...

[turbojet28]

Hmm. Interesting idea. I would have to modify it a little because there are definately other ways beside just CFIing to get extremely good experience. Although it sounds like a good idea to me, too, I lack the experience and social science aptitude to make a prediction on whether it would actually be a feasible rule.

Sometimes I don't know what to think. I definately want to "pay my dues" the old-fashioned way to the cockpit of an airliner/bizjet, and I believe I have gotten a good start. Just a question for those on the board with (LOTS) more experience: have checkrides, or the whole process of becoming a pilot, become more lenient over the past 10-15 years?

[scramjet]

Well I doubt that will happen anytime soon seeing as the FAA passed regs saying you only have to have an instrument rating to fly in space despite what some industry experts advise....

[Killtron2000]

It only takes average intelligence to be a pilot; really the manager at any given fast food place could probably do what you do if he went through the same training. From the way I hear a lot of people talk about these low time pilots getting hired I would expect there to be a smoldering pile of aluminum on the news every night. That's not the case and the regionals have a fine safety record. So what's the issue here? They "cut in line" and that's not fair? Grow up. I don't want to fly a 1900 because it's not jet time and it's too small so it won't look as good on the resume when I apply to a major. I'm going to avoid the 1900 if I can because whatever major I want to go to will have plenty of applicants with crj time to choose from. This whole “pay your dues” thing came from Vietnam era pilot who don't like the fact that people aren't doing it their way.

There is simply no need for a regulation because the FAA will only step in when the situation is unsafe not just because some people are jealous.

[turbojet28]

I believe that paying dues is (or at least was) a very important part of any profession, not just flying. Is there a difference between "cutting in line" and "paying your dues"? I don't know. Maybe sometimes. But, "paying dues" is, IMHO, a very important and essential thing. If that makes me old-fashioned, then color me old-fashioned. Just because I believe in climbing the traditional ladder, that doesn't mean I am "jealous" of people who attain their goals faster than I do or achieve them in a different way. Far from it.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

It only takes average intelligence to be a pilot; really the manager at any given fast food place could probably do what you do if he went through the same training.

Average intelligence may be true, but the notion that "anyone" can just become an airline pilot is just ridiculous. I'd argue with you more, but I don't think you're not coming from a position of knowlege, so what's the point?

From the way I hear a lot of people talk about these low time pilots getting hired I would expect there to be a smoldering pile of aluminum on the news every night. That's not the case and the regionals have a fine safety record. So what's the issue here? They "cut in line" and that's not fair? Grow up.

Nearly every captain I've flown with has complained about new-hire instructors in the CRJ, and my company requires 1000 total with no exceptions. When I tell them what Pinnacle, ASA, and Comair's mins are their response is usually extreme sympathy for the captains there. There may be only one smoldering pile of aluminum associated with low-timers recently, but the reduction in safety is tangible.

Additionally, if you have the attitude that it's OK to cut corners in your training, what does that say about the attitude you're going to have flying the plane?

I don't want to fly a 1900 because it's not jet time and it's too small so it won't look as good on the resume when I apply to a major. I'm going to avoid the 1900 if I can because whatever major I want to go to will have plenty of applicants with crj time to choose from. This whole “pay your dues” thing came from Vietnam era pilot who don't like the fact that people aren't doing it their way.

I'll admit, this is a top-quality troll.

There is simply no need for a regulation because the FAA will only step in when the situation is unsafe not just because some people are jealous.

If you've dealt with the FAA, then you know that they generally only step in well *after* the situation becomes deadly, not when it becomes unsafe.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Average intelligence may be true, but the notion that "anyone" can just become an airline pilot is just ridiculous. I'd argue with you more, but I don't think you're not coming from a position of knowlege, so what's the point?

Maybe not everyone could do it but almost anyone who can get a medical can.

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Nearly every captain I've flown with has complained about new-hire instructors in the CRJ, and my company requires 1000 total with no exceptions. When I tell them what Pinnacle, ASA, and Comair's mins are their response is usually extreme sympathy for the captains there. There may be only one smoldering pile of aluminum associated with low-timers recently, but the reduction in safety is tangible.

Too bad the facts don't confirm your anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Additionally, if you have the attitude that it's OK to cut corners in your training, what does that say about the attitude you're going to have flying the plane?

I didn't say it is ok to cut corners in your training I meant that some people just have the means to get there faster and that doesn't mean they are bad pilots jut because some people are jealous.

Originally Posted by zmiller4

I'll admit, this is a top-quality troll.

I'm not trolling it's true what would you rather put on a resume 2000 hours B1900 time or 2000 hours CRJ 700 time. I can't blame people for not wanting to go with the 1900. Some people are holding out for a better job there is nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by zmiller4

If you've dealt with the FAA, then you know that they generally only step in well *after* the situation becomes deadly, not when it becomes unsafe.

And I doubt they ever will make a regulation about this because it won't be an issue. I've heard this before and you guys act like the regionals jets are going to be falling out of the sky any minute now. But it hasn't happened and it won't happen.

[Ian J]

Killtron, I have to ask: Have you read and considered ANYTHING posted here by very experienced Regional and Major airline pilots since you joined in Jan 2006? Everyone is entitled to opinions, but what you write is in direct contradiction to the advice I've seen by some VERY experienced pilots.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Killtron, I have to ask: Have you read and considered ANYTHING posted here by very experienced Regional and Major airline pilots since you joined in Jan 2006? Everyone is entitled to opinions, but what you write is in direct contradiction to the advice I've seen by some VERY experienced pilots.

They did it the most practical way back then and now naturally they assume that was the best way and everyone should do it like that.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

They did it the most practical way back then and now naturally they assume that was the best way and everyone should do it like that.

But they are currently flying for companies you want to work for one day. They have first hand experience. You do not. You are a flight student. It doesn't matter how they did it "back in the day," it matters that they are there NOW.

I just don't get why you think you know better than them.

[DE727UPS]

Somebody said this at another thread. "If RJ's aren't making smoking holes in the ground then there isn't a problem..."

You just can't argue with folks that look at it that way.

What's funny though is the folks who hold this opinion aren't RJ Capts who would be the best ones to really answer to this debate. My guess is they are low time pilots themselves with no experience with the airlines.

I'll stick to the old fashoned way of working your way up instead of buying your way in. In my experience, paying your dues breeds integrity and a better understanding of what the career is all about.

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

I'll admit, this is a top-quality troll.

And the original post wasn't trolling just a little bit?

Somebody, quick, call DE727UPS there is another "Thou Shalt Pay One's Dues at the CFI level." Thread.

I apologize in advance if my sarcasm offends anyone, but hasn't there been a lot of these threads lately.

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Somebody said this at another thread. "If RJ's aren't making smoking holes in the ground then there isn't a problem..."

You just can't argue with folks that look at it that way.

What's funny though is the folks who hold this opinion aren't RJ Capts who would be the best ones to really answer to this debate. My guess is they are low time pilots themselves with no experience with the airlines.

I'll stick to the old fashoned way of working your way up instead of buying your way in. In my experience, paying your dues breeds integrity and a better understanding of what the career is all about.

Darn it, I thought I made my post before you got into this thread

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by dbakeg00

"your flight training time + your time as a cfi must = 3 years (at the minimum) before you are allowed to fly a jet."

I would like to understand why you have to be a CFI. I agree with time, but would like to also add the fact.

ATP required age of 35 or more! Don't care if you have 10,000 hours, not of age not a Captain.

Also, all accelerated pilot courses should be done away with. No amount of flight time can replace experience...which is minmized through these courses.

Agree on accelerated programs. And how is the CFI time better then the Part91 corp flying????

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I'll stick to the old fashoned way of working your way up instead of buying your way in. In my experience, paying your dues breeds integrity and a better understanding of what the career is all about.

Agreed! Don't buy your way in. Earn it!

[sefro]

If you read is original post he is saying that you should be a cfi for three years to gain EXPERIENCE he isn't saying that you should suffer or "pay your dues" but should be required to teach for a few years so you can be a better pilot. Because we all know there is no substitute for time in an airplane.
Seth

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by sefro

If you read is original post he is saying that you should be a cfi for three years to gain EXPERIENCE he isn't saying that you should suffer or "pay your dues" but should be required to teach for a few years so you can be a better pilot. Because we all know there is no substitute for time in an airplane.
Seth

Still looking why it has to be a CFI? I am flying SEL Part91, whats the diff? Is being a CFI paying "your dues"?

[johntlewis]

What about someone flying a VLJ? It seems that VLJ's are going to be the next big thing pretty soon and at least one of them is going to be targeted towards the Private pilot. Your proposal would keep technology from becoming available to the consumer.

Further, why should one have to be a CFI before moving up to Jets? What if I have the money and I'm willing to pay for my twin time? Why should I have to be a CFI if I have the cash?

Paying your dues? Yes, I think pilots still have to pay their dues. 1-2 years as a CFI, then a job making less than your FAT food manager as a regional guy. Then after several thousand hours you can finally start making real money. Oh, and let's not forget the thousands of dollars spent just to get your ratings that some of us will be paying on for years to come. I think that's paying your dues.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by johntlewis

What about someone flying a VLJ? It seems that VLJ's are going to be the next big thing pretty soon and at least one of them is going to be targeted towards the Private pilot. Your proposal would keep technology from becoming available to the consumer.

More then just a PPL, very low time PPL. Ask any Cirrus Owners about the Pewer Coaster....they want the SR22 drivers to upgrade to "the Jet" before 500TT!

Further, why should one have to be a CFI before moving up to Jets? What if I have the money and I'm willing to pay for my twin time? Why should I have to be a CFI if I have the cash?

True, very true. THere are also other ways to build time and get paid besides CFI also, mentioned in numerous threads.

[Killtron2000]

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

In my mind ultimately it comes down to how good of a pilot are you not how you got your time. I don't really care if some old captain thinks I'm not qualified to baby sit an autopilot because I didn't shoot down any migs over laos.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

In my mind ultimately it comes down to how good of a pilot are you not how you got your time. I don't really care if some old captain thinks I'm not qualified to baby sit an autopilot because I didn't shoot down any migs over laos.

Kids today...

Man. I can't even begin to respond to this. I am... astounded, Killtron. Really astounded at your comments. And actually, a little bit sad.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Kids today...

Man. I can't even begin to respond to this. I am... astounded, Killtron. Really astounded at your comments. And actually, a little bit sad.

That last line is hyperbole but the rest of it is serious.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

And, yeah, you're right. You've logic-ed your way right out of good advice from people with experience. Can't show you a peer reviewed study or anything.

If I wanted to work for a place like, I dunno, UPS, then I can't for the life of me figure out why I'd take "anecdotal" advice from a guy like DE727UPS.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

In my mind ultimately it comes down to how good of a pilot are you not how you got your time. I don't really care if some old captain thinks I'm not qualified to baby sit an autopilot because I didn't shoot down any migs over laos.

*sigh*

Killtron, never mind what all of us have told you - the advice we've offered you both publicly and privately.

You go ahead and do things your way. Keep spouting your youthful arrogance and know-it-all attitude.............but remember this:

Aviation is a very small - VERY small - community. The toes you step on here may very well be the ones which could walk in your resume some day.