A new regulation...

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

In my mind ultimately it comes down to how good of a pilot are you not how you got your time. I don't really care if some old captain thinks I'm not qualified to baby sit an autopilot because I didn't shoot down any migs over laos.

And why are you even ON JC for that matter? The site was started by a Major airline pilot who wanted to provide real world information and advice for wannabies. He, and others at his level, act as mentors and preach pretty much the opposite of what you espouse. That you would cry foul and scream "prove it, or otherwise I don't believe you," is pretty damn disrespectful.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by sefro

If you read is original post he is saying that you should be a cfi for three years to gain EXPERIENCE he isn't saying that you should suffer or "pay your dues" but should be required to teach for a few years so you can be a better pilot. Because we all know there is no substitute for time in an airplane.
Seth

In my opinion, the problem with this is. . . two things, pay, and benefits.

Some of us getting into the game already have families. We need the benefits that regionals offer - we can't keep CFI'ing at small schools with no benefits for 3 years. Just my opinion.

[DE727UPS]

"I'm not going to accept your point of view"

Like I could care less about changing YOUR point of view. Do I get extra points for that? I express my opinion at this site and you can take it or leave it.

"There has to be a tangible reason"

Not really. It's an opinion on the internet. See, I've been flying since 1979 and am a 767 Capt now. I've seen a few things. I don't need tangible proof to form an opinion I believe in. It's like saying you need to see God in person before you can be a believer. I don't need a tangible reason. If you do, then more power to ya. If your tangible reason is that airplanes aren't making smoking holes in the ground so it must be okay, then get rid of F/O's all together cause the CO757 going to Mexico didn't crash after one of the pilots died. Modern planes must only need one pilot to be safe, then.

[dbakeg00]

Killtron..."Only fools and dead men never changer their minds. Fools won't and dead men cant." Enough said.

[Killtron2000]

This happens in every field, the guys at the top think the way they got there is the best it's human nature it doesn't mean they're right. If you didn't go to their school or didn't have to learn how to navigate by the stars or whatever they had to do then they aren't going to accept you. So given that I have to take everything said with a grain of salt especially on the Internet, and since you can't even tell me why then the only prudent thing to do is ignore it. I'm just going to clarify what I'm asking and that is why hold it against someone who bought their time? I'm not saying I plan to buy my time or anything like that.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Have a little respect for literally hundreds of years of experience you're completely disregarding, why dontcha?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

This happens in every field, the guys at the top think the way they got there is the best it's human nature it doesn't mean they're right. If you didn't go to their school or didn't have to learn how to navigate by the stars or whatever they had to do then they aren't going to accept you. So given that I have to take everything said with a grain of salt especially on the Internet, and since you can't even tell me why then the only prudent thing to do is ignore it. I'm just going to clarify what I'm asking and that is why hold it against someone who bought their time? I'm not saying I plan to buy my time or anything like that.

I can't speak for the others, but in your original post on this thread I was responding to this:

From the way I hear a lot of people talk about these low time pilots getting hired I would expect there to be a smoldering pile of aluminum on the news every night. That's not the case and the regionals have a fine safety record. So what's the issue here? They "cut in line" and that's not fair? Grow up. I don't want to fly a 1900 because it's not jet time and it's too small so it won't look as good on the resume when I apply to a major. I'm going to avoid the 1900 if I can because whatever major I want to go to will have plenty of applicants with crj time to choose from. This whole “pay your dues” thing came from Vietnam era pilot who don't like the fact that people aren't doing it their way.

I wasn't talking about buying time.

The main point originally was very low-time pilots flying jets, and not buying time.

The original poster did reference money in his post, but I think his main point was CFI-ing builds experience. Most airline pilots seem to agree, although that point has been argued here many times. And though his three year suggestion might be a bit over the top (my opinion only), his intent was clear.

[Champcar]

Why have the government do it. Why don't the Unions step in if it is such a big concern among pilots.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Alright if y'all have more experience then me explain how buying your time compromises safety. I'm not going to accept your point of view if you just keep saying that experienced airline pilots disagree with me and leave it at that. There has to be a tangible reason they disagree and if you offer me something more then anecdotal evidence I will take it seriously.

Killtron, it's not about buying time, it's about low-time pilots getting into the airlines, which nearly everybody here (which includes two relatively new airline pilots and a guy with an ungodly amount of airline experience) tells you is not a good thing. You can take that or leave it, I don't really care. But at some point you might want to consider why people with a TON more experience than you are telling you this.

And no, the relative rarity of fatal accidents in the last couple of years is not acceptable evidence of the safety of low-time pilots as you're claiming. There is no real way to measure the effects of low-timers other than to 1) look at their history with the company, including evaluations, FAA actions against them, etc (which you definately haven't done) and 2) talk to the people who have to fly with them (which you also haven't done at all). Effective crewmembers are measured by a lot more than whether they've been involved in a fatal or high-profile accident or not, as you seem to by implying.

[jtrain609]

I didn't read this whole thread, I doubt most of killtrons crap is worth my time.

But I will say the only people that bag on flight instructing at the people that are not flight instructors, and the only people that say that having 600 hours is enough time to fly RJ's are guys that are sub 600 hour pilots.

Just something to keep in mind.

[sefro]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

In my opinion, the problem with this is. . . two things, pay, and benefits.

Some of us getting into the game already have families. We need the benefits that regionals offer - we can't keep CFI'ing at small schools with no benefits for 3 years. Just my opinion.

I am not saying that the pay is great as a cfi nor are the benefits. I am saying that you guys are getting completly side tracked on the paying your dues. What the origonal poster was trying to say is being a cfi teaches you invaluable lessons that he thinks are important and that everybody should teach so that they can have those experiences to make themselves a better pilot.

[Dreampilot]

Originally Posted by dbakeg00

I think someone should write a Reg (I can't believe that I'm asking for more regs) basically to the effect of "your flight training time + your time as a cfi must = 3 years (at the minimum) before you are allowed to fly a jet." Also, all accelerated pilot courses should be done away with. No amount of flight time can replace experience...which is minmized through these courses. Experience = tool to become a good pilot. Being a pilot has lost almost all of its "shine." People, in the pursuit of money, have whorred out our profession to make it seem as if anyone can do it. Maybe anyone can do it (not literally), but those who choose to do it should have to spill blood, sweat, and tears AND pay their dues (not money!) to get there. I'm still realitivly new to the field, but I am so sick of hearing every guy/girl with 250-1000 hours talk about the planes that he/she is already too good to fly (ie Beech 1900). You should have to be a CFI with a certain amount of dual given to fly a jet..end of story. I think that would weed alot of people out. Im all for the programs that help people to realize their dream to become pilots, but to make it easier to become an airline pilot than a manager at your local FAT food restaurant..that makes me sick. (no disrespect to managers at restaurants)

-Sorry I just needed to vent a little. "JC...not only where pilots can meet people and learn alot, but also where they can relieve a little stress!" (no charge for that new slogan Doug). Any other ideas about how we can start weeding people out...?

Hey man,

Don't be jealous or envious of others just because they got to that jet quicker. They are the ones spending thousands of dollars to get to that point. They still have to work very very hard through training and also must flight instruct to get where they are. Regionals are in dire need for pilots right now and that why alot of people are getting on with low time. Don't think I went to an academy. I am doing the FBO thing and will be much better off financially than the ones spending 50K to get their ratings. Everyone is different. No disrespect to anyone.

[whaleroast]

Originally Posted by Dreampilot

Hey man,

Don't be jealous or envious of others just because they got to that jet quicker. They are the ones spending thousands of dollars to get to that point. They still have to work very very hard through training and also must flight instruct to get where they are. Regionals are in dire need for pilots right now and that why alot of people are getting on with low time. Don't think I went to an academy. I am doing the FBO thing and will be much better off financially than the ones spending 50K to get their ratings. Everyone is different. No disrespect to anyone.

I'm not jealous or envious of anyone that bought their way into a right seat. I just think they missed out of a lot of good aviation experiences. Being a CFI, flying freight doing, traffic watch, ag spraying or whatever is a good experience that makes us pilots that have done it better pilots with interesting stories to boot. I've done all of that and other things, made it to a regional and got furloughed, only to go on and do other things and I am not one bit regretful of what I have done. You meet a lot of interesting people in life flying 135, have a lot of interesting experiences single pilot night ifr, making decisions on your own and making decisons whether to go or not. You aren't coddled like these here bridge people are, that's for sure.

I have a good friend at Pinnacle, a captain now who did it the "right" way..CFI,frieght,and he laments about these 300 hour pilots he gets sitting in the right seat. The sim training fulfills the expectations of the checkride, but real world flying for a 121 carrier is different. I know what kind of a pilot I was at 300 hours and I am not ashamed to admit that even though I had a commerical license, multi and instrument rating, I was not ready to fly commercial airlines.

There's a lot of things wrong with the regionals right now. I think we all now what they are. The shear injustice of the rates being paid professionals pilots is chief among them, but when these 200 hour pilots are there to take these low paying jobs, is it any wonder why the pay is so low? There are always going to be guys or gals to fly these jets as long as they can pay for their jobs and get bought by the airline like slaves, made to sign training contracts and promised whatever it is they are promised.

When I tell my non-aviation friends about what is happening in aviation at the regional level, about how 200 hour co-pilots are crew members on 70 seat jets they look at me like I am crazy and it takes some convincing to make them understand that what I am saying is true. But with the fares being as low as they are, you'll have a hard time convincing people not to fly this or that regional because of the inexperience in the cockpit.

Just to throw it out there. Let's talk about those 121 companies that make it a practice to hire those from bridge programs:

ExpressJet
Pinnacle
Comair
Republic/Chatuaqua/Shuttle America
Mesa/Freedom

Anybody I am missing?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by sefro

I am not saying that the pay is great as a cfi nor are the benefits. I am saying that you guys are getting completly side tracked on the paying your dues. What the origonal poster was trying to say is being a cfi teaches you invaluable lessons that he thinks are important and that everybody should teach so that they can have those experiences to make themselves a better pilot.

Oh I'm all for paying my dues. So relax right there.

I'm looking forward to my time as a CFI. But in no way shape or form, am I going to spend 3 years as a CFI. Not in this climate, and not when I need better pay, and benefits, and hell a much better QOL in the 121 world.

I hope to eventually be near the 700-900 TT make by next spring / early summer (of 08).

What bothers me, is that someone will still say 900 TT is still not enough time to sit in the right seat of a jet and that I should go back to CFI'ing, or flying freight to gain the same experience that they got.

Times have changed, but I have some morals, and I will not be buying any time or doing any sort of bridge program, or a PFJ program. I'll CFI to the point that gets me into the regionals so that I can start to bring some benefits back to my family. I don't have time to play the 135 freight game, and honestly, I don't know (right now - my whole 37TT worth of experience) if I could hack it.

Dictating and arguing over what is the right TT/ME time for a new FO in the 121 game is pointless. Everyone has their own opinion. For the most part, here at JC, we agree that 200-300 hour pilots are not experienced enough - but what about 900 hours? 1200 hours? 1500 hours? Certainly they have paid their dues CFI'ing and getting put into situations by students that could of killed them to move onto a more profittable and honestly - safer - environment.

Just no point agruing over what TT should be before getting into the 121 cockpit. The problem lies with Airline management, and just lowering the standards as opposed to increasing the benefits to bring in the well qualified individuals.

I have a friend that is soon to be an intern at ASA. God Love him. He will have almost 250TT, and after the intern program he will be offered an interview for an FO position with them. I'm supportive, and wish him the best of luck. It's not his fault that he is taking advantage of the internship, but my problem is with the airlines and their "oh-it's not a big deal" attitude towards this type of stuff.

I want to know what happens and what things are said at interviews when a 250 hour wonder is sitting across the table from 3 Captains with 3500+TT. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that room. Any interview board members want to chime in on this?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Oh I'm all for paying my dues. So relax right there.

I'm looking forward to my time as a CFI. But in no way shape or form, am I going to spend 3 years as a CFI. Not in this climate, and not when I need better pay, and benefits, and hell a much better QOL in the 121 world.

That's assuming there are people to teach in a few years.

[Nismaxdan]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

And, yeah, you're right. You've logic-ed your way right out of good advice from people with experience. Can't show you a peer reviewed study or anything.

If I wanted to work for a place like, I dunno, UPS, then I can't for the life of me figure out why I'd take "anecdotal" advice from a guy like DE727UPS.

True dat. I will admit a lot of us may not like the way DE727UPS comes across sometimes, but if you think with you brain and not you fingers (on the keyboard) sometimes you will pick something good out of what he says.

[flyTotheSky]

Originally Posted by whaleroast

I'm not jealous or envious of anyone that bought their way into a right seat. I just think they missed out of a lot of good aviation experiences. Being a CFI, flying freight doing, traffic watch, ag spraying or whatever is a good experience that makes us pilots that have done it better pilots with interesting stories to boot. I've done all of that and other things, made it to a regional and got furloughed, only to go on and do other things and I am not one bit regretful of what I have done. You meet a lot of interesting people in life flying 135, have a lot of interesting experiences single pilot night ifr, making decisions on your own and making decisons whether to go or not. You aren't coddled like these here bridge people are, that's for sure.

I have a good friend at Pinnacle, a captain now who did it the "right" way..CFI,frieght,and he laments about these 300 hour pilots he gets sitting in the right seat. The sim training fulfills the expectations of the checkride, but real world flying for a 121 carrier is different. I know what kind of a pilot I was at 300 hours and I am not ashamed to admit that even though I had a commerical license, multi and instrument rating, I was not ready to fly commercial airlines.

There's a lot of things wrong with the regionals right now. I think we all now what they are. The shear injustice of the rates being paid professionals pilots is chief among them, but when these 200 hour pilots are there to take these low paying jobs, is it any wonder why the pay is so low? There are always going to be guys or gals to fly these jets as long as they can pay for their jobs and get bought by the airline like slaves, made to sign training contracts and promised whatever it is they are promised.

When I tell my non-aviation friends about what is happening in aviation at the regional level, about how 200 hour co-pilots are crew members on 70 seat jets they look at me like I am crazy and it takes some convincing to make them understand that what I am saying is true. But with the fares being as low as they are, you'll have a hard time convincing people not to fly this or that regional because of the inexperience in the cockpit.

Just to throw it out there. Let's talk about those 121 companies that make it a practice to hire those from bridge programs:

ExpressJet
Pinnacle
Comair
Republic/Chatuaqua/Shuttle America
Mesa/Freedom

Anybody I am missing?

I know AE and ASA will hire out of bridge programs (500/100). TSA will just hire about anyone with a pulse right now (no bridge program). Last I heard, someone got hired with 400/20. And believe it or not, the holy grail of regionals...Horizon... will drop their mins for certain grads of a university in WA...forgot the name...and I think UND as well.

[falconvalley]

I just skimmed through this, but I'd like to mention that I know of at least one person who went from a B1900 to a Major (not to mention any names)...quite a large major at that. So, to say that Major airlines don't respect right or left seat time in a B1900 is ridiculous and clearly based soley on opinion. I don't care where you got that from, it's not fact and not based on experience. That doesn't mean that it's completely wrong have time in a CRJ and that you won't get respect with time in a CRJ. You can but, if I were sitting across an interview table from two applicants with equal time, one with CRJ and one with B1900, the equipment type goes "out the window". Give me an example of someone who gives a darn primarily that my time is in a B1900 rather than any other crew turbine aircraft and you have an example of a company I'm not interesting in working for. I'm not talking about hiring for high level postions or specialties, either. I'm just generalizing.

On a side note, in reference to the original thread, the last thing today's students need are a bunch of CFIs that hate their job and want nothing to do with it but are doing it because they have to by law. We have enough CFIs like that as it is. You want to create a generation of crappy pilots, then make it a law to teach for advancement.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

I just skimmed through this, but I'd like to mention that I know of at least one person who went from a B1900 to a Major (not to mention any names)...quite a large major at that. So, to say that Major airlines don't respect right or left seat time in a B1900 is ridiculous and clearly based soley on opinion. I don't care where you got that from, it's not fact and not based on experience. That doesn't mean that it's completely wrong have time in a CRJ and that you won't get respect with time in a CRJ. You can but, if I were sitting across an interview table from two applicants with equal time, one with CRJ and one with B1900, the equipment type goes "out the window". Give me an example of someone who gives a darn primarily that my time is in a B1900 rather than any other crew turbine aircraft and you have an example of a company I'm not interesting in working for. I'm not talking about hiring for high level postions or specialties, either. I'm just generalizing.

On a side note, in reference to the original thread, the last thing today's students need are a bunch of CFIs that hate their job and want nothing to do with it but are doing it because they have to by law. We have enough CFIs like that as it is. You want to create a generation of crappy pilots, then make it a law to teach for advancement.

[SRA_kbad]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Oh I'm all for paying my dues. So relax right there.

I'm looking forward to my time as a CFI. But in no way shape or form, am I going to spend 3 years as a CFI. Not in this climate, and not when I need better pay, and benefits, and hell a much better QOL in the 121 world.

I hope to eventually be near the 700-900 TT make by next spring / early summer (of 08).

What bothers me, is that someone will still say 900 TT is still not enough time to sit in the right seat of a jet and that I should go back to CFI'ing, or flying freight to gain the same experience that they got.

Times have changed, but I have some morals, and I will not be buying any time or doing any sort of bridge program, or a PFJ program. I'll CFI to the point that gets me into the regionals so that I can start to bring some benefits back to my family. I don't have time to play the 135 freight game, and honestly, I don't know (right now - my whole 37TT worth of experience) if I could hack it.

Dictating and arguing over what is the right TT/ME time for a new FO in the 121 game is pointless. Everyone has their own opinion. For the most part, here at JC, we agree that 200-300 hour pilots are not experienced enough - but what about 900 hours? 1200 hours? 1500 hours? Certainly they have paid their dues CFI'ing and getting put into situations by students that could of killed them to move onto a more profittable and honestly - safer - environment.

Just no point agruing over what TT should be before getting into the 121 cockpit. The problem lies with Airline management, and just lowering the standards as opposed to increasing the benefits to bring in the well qualified individuals.

I have a friend that is soon to be an intern at ASA. God Love him. He will have almost 250TT, and after the intern program he will be offered an interview for an FO position with them. I'm supportive, and wish him the best of luck. It's not his fault that he is taking advantage of the internship, but my problem is with the airlines and their "oh-it's not a big deal" attitude towards this type of stuff.

I want to know what happens and what things are said at interviews when a 250 hour wonder is sitting across the table from 3 Captains with 3500+TT. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that room. Any interview board members want to chime in on this?

Very well said surreal!!!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

That's assuming there are people to teach in a few years.

I know exactly what you are trying to say. . . but I won't comment on it in this thread. But yes, god help those of us getting into this profession in the next year.

Thanks KBAD.

[Baradium]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

I don't want to fly a 1900 because it's not jet time and it's too small so it won't look as good on the resume when I apply to a major. I'm going to avoid the 1900 if I can because whatever major I want to go to will have plenty of applicants with crj time to choose from.

Except the airlines probobly know that in a 1900 you were flying most if not all of the time.

The captain I'm about to go fly with right now in a Beech 1900 just got hired by a major and will only be here for another two weeks. We lose guys to majors on a regular basis. F/Os will go to a regional from here, although most guys who leave here seem to be going to a jet or turboprop as a street captain.

By the way, we can get 1400 hours a year legally in our Beech 1900s in Alaska. I hear that Big Sky has a 1200 hour exemption (secondhand, don't know if it's true). Don't discount 1900 drivers. They might not be in such a shiny airplane, but they are doing the "traditional" regional flying and getting good experiene doing it.

Avoiding an aircraft becuase you are "too good for it" before you even have any experience is laughable in my mind. Maybe if everyone starts thinking that way turboprop pay will start to climb up since all the low time guys won't be seen in one.

[Champcar]

I think flying the 1900 would be fun. But there are some airplanes out there that I would say no thanks to flying.

Who cares if you have flown the CRJ or ERJ, you and everybody else. Turbine time is turbine time....I think.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I think flying the 1900 would be fun. But there are some airplanes out there that I would say no thanks to flying.

Who cares if you have flown the CRJ or ERJ, you and everybody else. Turbine time is turbine time....I think.

Yeah turbine time is turbine time, if anyone thinks differently they need an education. Before these RJs came out those hired at the majors that came from the civilian ranks had thousands of hours in Beech 99s, E-110s, 1900s, and Metros.

Why would you NOT want to fly a certain airplane that was offered to you?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Baradium

Except the airlines probobly know that in a 1900 you were flying most if not all of the time.

The captain I'm about to go fly with right now in a Beech 1900 just got hired by a major and will only be here for another two weeks. We lose guys to majors on a regular basis. F/Os will go to a regional from here, although most guys who leave here seem to be going to a jet or turboprop as a street captain.

By the way, we can get 1400 hours a year legally in our Beech 1900s in Alaska. I hear that Big Sky has a 1200 hour exemption (secondhand, don't know if it's true). Don't discount 1900 d