Skybus Airlines

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by skydog

I am completely serious. A guy earning 30K a year to fly a Metro should turn down twice that to do an easier job? All other things being equal, why would anyone do that?

I understand why guys like Doug Taylor or DE727 (don't know his name) want me to turn it down. It undermines their big fat paychecks. No surprise there. The elites of the world have always advocated keeping the little man down because it strengthens the ground upon which they, the elites, stand. I understand their motivation. What I don't understand is why the little man so willingly goes along with it.

You say that 65K is not enough to fly an airplane. But then you turn around and tell me I should keep slogging away for half of that pay? Which is it?

Go ahead and go $100,000 in debt for a $65,000/year top-end job.

It's America.

But the nanosecond that you complain about lack of duty rigs, no per diem, supporting a family of four on $65 G's and a lot of other professional aviation issues you hadn't considered or didn't know existed today, I'll show a copy of this post to you.

Hopefully, by that time, the other carriers haven't come down in compensation and benefits in order to match that cost structure and curry favor of Wall Street so you might have somewhere to escape to.

Believe me, I've been there. I'm trying to offer you guys a short cut to reality without the hard lessons that I had to learn and the bitter pills I had to swallow.

Your mileage may vary. Use as directed. Results NOT guaranteed.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

But Doug! It's an AIRBUS A320!

Fly as a Captain for $65k?

Heck, I'll do it for half that! $32.5k!

No, no, I'll do it for $20k.

Oh forget that! We're talking about a BRAND NEW SHINY AIRBUS A320!

I'll fly that for free!

I'll even pay for my own initial training and my own type rating, and then fly for free. If the airline needs money, I'll even plunk $30k just to get into the A320 and fly it for free!

[skydog]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

Are you on drugs? Are you a troll?
You seem to be implying that someone flying a A319 has an easier job than someone flying an old Metroliner. I'm not convinced that is the case.

65k is not enough to fly this airplane, not any airplane. And nobody suggested that you should keep 'slogging' away. I'd suggest you get a better job but keep in mind if everyone had your attitude there would be no better jobs.

By the way, Doug Taylor, Don, etc did not get hired by DAL, UPS, etc the day after they passed their CMEL. They WERE the little man for a long time and I don't think they have any desire to 'keep us down', but just to make sure there is a place worth coming to and striving for for us little men in the future.

No I am not on drugs. And I am not a troll (unless there is some internet based definition of the word I am not aware of). And perhaps "easier" was the wrong word. What I meant to imply was that flying a high performance state of the art Airbus is a more comfortable gig than flying a 1960's technology Metro.

Further, I am well aware that neither of these gentlemen started out on top. But, having gotten there, they (and every other major airline pilot) have a vested interest in keeping the regional guys as downtrodden as possible. If they had their way, the largest airplane any non-major pilot would be flying would probably be flying would be a Metro or Saab or whatnot.

That's fine for the select few who make it to the majors. But the unfortunate truth is that the majority of pilots will not make it to the majors. They will spend their careers flying for regional or national airlines, or perhaps freight or corporate. I know many fine pilots who are as skilled as any pilot out there, but due to a choices, circumstances, random factors, whatever, they have spent the their careers flying for such carriers as EastWind Airlines, Express One (btw did you know that Express One paid their 727 captains even less than what this Skybus is proposing?), Casino Express, Kitty Hawk, etc.

The simple truth is the that major airline pilots don't want you working for Skybus, Virgin America or whoever, not because they care about your career progression, but their own. I recognize as well as they do that any pilot who flies heavy jets for less than the "accepted" rate threatens their job security.

If the major guys were offering an alternative, I might have a different attitude. But they are not. I don't see major airline pilot groups pushing for some some kind of guaranteed flow through for their regional partners. I don't see them holding the line in regards to pay and benefits. All I see is a group of self-interested pilots who want to keep the little guy down because it solidifes the ground on which they, the major guys, stand.

As I said earlier, I understand, and can even respect, why they do it. It's human nature for a person to protect what they have. What I can't understand in this case is why the little guy is so willingly going along with it.

The upshot of all this is that I think people should take advantage of any good opportunity to move up that comes along. And for some, Skybus may be a good opportunity. If you think it is not than you don't have to apply.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The simple truth is the that major airline pilots don't want you working for Skybus, Virgin America or whoever, not because they care about your career progression, but their own. I recognize as well as they do that any pilot who flies heavy jets for less than the "accepted" rate threatens their job security.

That's so far from the truth, I'm going to spell it R-O-N-G!

If SkyBus offered $125k-$175k+ for an A320 Captain, I don't think anyone here would mind. It's the fact that being paid $65k as an Airbus A320 captain takes the entire profession to a whole new 'low.' You are every management's wet dream... pilots willing to fly big jets for very very little pay.

If the major guys were offering an alternative, I might have a different attitude. But they are not. I don't see major airline pilot groups pushing for some some kind of guaranteed flow through for their regional partners. I don't see them holding the line in regards to pay and benefits. All I see is a group of self-interested pilots who want to keep the little guy down because it solidifes the ground on which they, the major guys, stand.

Do your research first. AA and Eagle, Continental and Continental Express (back in the day) had flowthroughs. The AA/Eagle flowthrough was HORRIBLE. Only about 115 Eagle pilots flowed up to AA, but after 9/11, the flowbacks came and took upwards of 600 captain seats at Eagle. 115 flowed up, 600 came flowing down, displacing many Eagle pilots.

[skydog]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

That's so far from the truth, I'm going to spell it R-O-N-G!

If SkyBus offered $125k-$175k+ for an A320 Captain, I don't think anyone here would mind. It's the fact that being paid $65k as an Airbus A320 captain takes the entire profession to a whole new 'low.' You are every management's wet dream... pilots willing to fly big jets for very very little pay.



Do your research first. AA and Eagle, Continental and Continental Express (back in the day) had flowthroughs. The AA/Eagle flowthrough was HORRIBLE. Only about 115 Eagle pilots flowed up to AA, but after 9/11, the flowbacks came and took upwards of 600 captain seats at Eagle. 115 flowed up, 600 came flowing down, displacing many Eagle pilots.

If Skybus offered $125-175K we wouldn't be having this discussion. My point was that not everyone has the same opportunities, and one person should not be demonizing another for taking advantage of whatever comes his or her way.

I have done my research. I am well aware of both flow through programs. The only reason the Eagle flowthrough was horrible is because it ended up working in a manner the Eagle guys weren't expecting. However it was only fair. If regional guys want to flow up, then the major guys should have the option of flowing down. But if it was horrible deal for the Eagle, who's fault was that? The mainline guys.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by skydog

But, having gotten there, they (and every other major airline pilot) have a vested interest in keeping the regional guys as downtrodden as possible. If they had their way, the largest airplane any non-major pilot would be flying would probably be flying would be a Metro or Saab or whatnot.

I'm kinda speechless here...

That's fine for the select few who make it to the majors. But the unfortunate truth is that the majority of pilots will not make it to the majors. They will spend their careers flying for regional or national airlines, or perhaps freight or corporate. I know many fine pilots who are as skilled as any pilot out there, but due to a choices, circumstances, random factors, whatever, they have spent the their careers flying for such carriers as EastWind Airlines, Express One (btw did you know that Express One paid their 727 captains even less than what this Skybus is proposing?), Casino Express, Kitty Hawk, etc.

The simple truth is the that major airline pilots don't want you working for Skybus, Virgin America or whoever, not because they care about your career progression, but their own. I recognize as well as they do that any pilot who flies heavy jets for less than the "accepted" rate threatens their job security.

You recognize it, but you don't really understand it. No pilot is going to "threaten" my job security by flying for any of these companies. I'm a firm believer in the phrase, "a rising tide lifts all boats." I don't want any one to make less, I want everyone to make more!

If the major guys were offering an alternative, I might have a different attitude. But they are not. I don't see major airline pilot groups pushing for some some kind of guaranteed flow through for their regional partners.

This is exactly what was done at my place, see the various Comair threads or talk to an ASA pilot about the outcome.

I don't see them holding the line in regards to pay and benefits.

I don't see anyone in this business holding the line right now except for FedEx & UPS, thank God for them!

All I see is a group of self-interested pilots who want to keep the little guy down because it solidifes the ground on which they, the major guys, stand.

This is where you couldn't be more wrong. When your pay goes up, my pay goes up. When my pay goes up, your pay goes up. It really is that simple.

As I said earlier, I understand, and can even respect, why they do it. It's human nature for a person to protect what they have. What I can't understand in this case is why the little guy is so willingly going along with it.

The upshot of all this is that I think people should take advantage of any good opportunity to move up that comes along. And for some, Skybus may be a good opportunity. If you think it is not than you don't have to apply.

Where we differ here is that you view this as a zero-sum game; if I win you somehow have to lose or vice versa. As I said before, a rising tide lifts all boats. When anyone of us gets a pay raise we all win. I want everyone looking for a flying job to go to the highest paying one they can find, or to try to bring the wages at their current job up as much as they can.

Kevin

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by skydog

If Skybus offered $125-175K we wouldn't be having this discussion. My point was that not everyone has the same opportunities, and one person should not be demonizing another for taking advantage of whatever comes his or her way.

Where do you draw the line?

Suppose Continental pilots went on strike. Would you take "advantage of whatever comes your way" and accept a F/O position with Continental as a replacement (Scab) worker? Bet you would!

I have done my research. I am well aware of both flow through programs. The only reason the Eagle flowthrough was horrible is because it ended up working in a manner the Eagle guys weren't expecting. However it was only fair. If regional guys want to flow up, then the major guys should have the option of flowing down.

No, the Eagle flowback was NOT fair. Initially, 114 or so Eagle pilots flowed up. Now if 114 AA pilots flowed back, everyone would have been happy and dandy. That was how the flowthrough/flowback was suppose to work.

But no, it was decided that AA could flowback as many Captains as there were Eagle pilots who had declared flowthrough. There were about 600 of those guys. So, 600 AA pilots flowed back and displaced tons of Eagle Captains and first officers. Even TWA pilots became flowbacks at Eagle.

Wasn't exactly a fair deal. But oh well, flowbacks are being recalled, and they are headed back to AA. I think there's still about 250 flowbacks left to go.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by skydog

Further, I am well aware that neither of these gentlemen started out on top. But, having gotten there, they (and every other major airline pilot) have a vested interest in keeping the regional guys as downtrodden as possible.

The guy who started this site seems pretty interested in just the opposite. Why in the world would he spend so much free time maintaining JC? He's here to help the "little guys."

All the other Major pilots around here seem pretty interested in helping, mentoring, and giving the straight poop to new guys. Do you not see that?

That was an amazingly disrespectful comment.

[Ian J]

Nov 25th, 2006.

#16

Originally Posted by skydog

It's nice to enjoy what you do, but job satisfaction is not a form of payment your creditors will accept. That's why I get so annoyed when I hear about people saying things like "I don't care about money, I just wanna fly." They are the ones ruining it for the rest of us, because those who "just wanna fly" usually do it for lower wages. That's what is killing this profession.

The irony is that the ones who "Just wanna fly" are usually the ones that (later on) are pi$$ing and moaning about the #####ty pay.

Nov 15th

Originally Posted by skydog

Don't get me wrong. I think a commercial pilot is worth every penny of that 200K. But it seems to me that it is the pilots themselves who do not think they are worth it. If they REALLY felt they were worth that kind of money, then they would walk out of the room when they were offered less. But, as I said, it seems that the view from the front is worth more than the money.

Looks like some things have changed, huh?

[Ian J]

And lastly, from a thread about skybus on Oct 29th.

Originally Posted by skydog

Then we have no one to blame but ourselves. We can only be underpaid with our consent.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Nov 25th, 2006.

#16



Nov 15th



Looks like some things have changed, huh?

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

And lastly, from a thread about skybus on Oct 29th.

Look out Chinook's bored and using his investigative mojo......

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by JEP

Look out Chinook's bored and using his investigative mojo......

I don't mean to be an ass... here's exactly what happened:

Skydog was making some pretty messed up comments.

I wanted to read some old posts of his to get a feel for if he was always like this, or maybe he was just having a bad day.

I stumbled upon things he said in the past that directly contradict his position in this thread.

I really didn't go searching for stuff on purpose.

[Swen]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Nov 25th, 2006.
Nov 15th

Looks like some things have changed, huh?

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

And lastly, from a thread about skybus on Oct 29th.

[Cactus_Cutter]

No I’m not a top paying major pilot. In fact I am in the first 10min of my 121 career:

I don’t think its an issue between the main line and regionals. With the exception of AA and Eagle’s crappy flow through agreements. The issue boils down to industry ethics and pilot’s perception in career growth when selecting a company to fly with. The fact is you have to start somewhere in this industry and it may not be the most desirable position. Many have the perception that they need to flying left seat 777’s yesterday and don’t realize that it takes time to reach your desired goals.

Sure I had an opportunity to quit CFIing very early and go to work for a low time regional but I choose to stay even though I could not pay my bills with my current CFI job to wait for a job at a better regional. Why? I heard many negatives about the regional including low pay and low QOL. I felt the regional was undercutting their pilots and that the organization was not structured at all. By holding out I now work for a quality regional that is operated in accordance with airline industry standards and practices. I will use the same principles when it comes to select a major.

Will there be crappy flying companies out there? Sure its America and they have a right to offer this, but it’s the pilot that does not have to accept this. If more would have a backbone and refuse to work at these places then these companies would either pay industry standards or go out of business.

To sum it up. This is a “start-up” company whose financial future and existence is uncertain. Why would you want to take a job that pays below industry standards for a company that is so risky?

Stick up to your career. You worked hard for it. Think of your future. Don’t undercut yourself.

[DE727UPS]

"I understand why guys like Doug Taylor or DE727 (don't know his name) want me to turn it down. It undermines their big fat paychecks. No surprise there. The elites of the world have always advocated keeping the little man down because it strengthens the ground upon which they, the elites, stand. I understand their motivation"

It's Don Eikenberry, Spokane, Washington (DE727UPS) What's your name?

So you think I'm an elitist keeping the little man down, eh? Guess that's why I spend hours here giving career advice, for nothing, to newbs considering getting into the biz. Must all be a part of some big conspiracy to keep the man down. Yeah, you got it....

(Doug, our inner circle's been discovered. Quick, destroy your decoder ring. I just ate mine)

On a serious note. If you want to work for Skybus for 65K, knock yourself out. The more people are willing to settle for such a wage to fly an Airbus, the fewer dream jobs (like mine) there will be. Just keep that in mind.

I came from a 121 supplemental freight background, in fact, Kittyhawk bought our assets. So I've seen both sides of the coin. The guys stuck at those jobs didn't have a degree, had a checkered past, are fat, or just gave up too easy. A few got screwed big time by the system. Emery comes to mind. It happens. It's part of the risk you take being in this biz. It could have just as easy happened to me as the next guy. Not much you can do about it but keep plugging away. I guess I could have quit when I got furloughed in 89 from my Convair job and gone to Kittyhawk. Then I could bitch about elitist UPS pilots. That would be fun.

You are telling JC members their careers will most likely never amount to anything more than a 65K a year bus driver. Not sure what your motivation is but maybe it's not me trying to keep the man down....

[Seggy]

Skydog, did/do you work for GoJets? I heard A LOT of guys from GoJets are going to Skybus.

I guess the two go in together nicely.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by staplegun

You recognize it, but you don't really understand it. No pilot is going to "threaten" my job security by flying for any of these companies. I'm a firm believer in the phrase, "a rising tide lifts all boats." I don't want any one to make less, I want everyone to make more!

<snip>

Where we differ here is that you view this as a zero-sum game; if I win you somehow have to lose or vice versa. As I said before, a rising tide lifts all boats. When anyone of us gets a pay raise we all win. I want everyone looking for a flying job to go to the highest paying one they can find, or to try to bring the wages at their current job up as much as they can.

Kevin

Kevin, you're looking like a good candidate to join my list of "People To Listen To". And it's a pretty short list. Keep up the good work buddy.

[skydog]

Nothing's changed for me. I do believe that a pilot is worth that 200K. But it is not my place to tell someone where he should work and for how much. Nor will I villify him for "bringing down the profession" because he is working for less than I am. The "I just wanna fly" people messing things up are the ones who put so much effort into a poor paying job (i.e 20K). Now here is where we disagree. I, along with probably 80% of the population, happen to think that 65K a year is a decent salary. People can live on it. People can purchase homes. People can save for retirement. It's not all the money in the world, but I know many people who doing just fine on similiar salaries. They own homes, they own new cars, they take vacations, they save for retirement, they put their children through school.

The fact is every profession has it's top of the heap jobs, and it also has its bottom of the ladder jobs. Some doctors and lawyers make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. Others (the majority) make considerably less. That is not because one is a scab or is willing to undercut someone else. It is because it was the opportunity they had.

Any career path is a pyramid, with the best paying jobs at the top. The unfortunate thing about a pyramid is that there is not room for everybody at the top. Someone has to be in the middle, and someone has to be at the bottom. As has been stated many times by many people on here, success in this career field is as much about being in the right place at the right time, as it is about qualifications. This flying profession is full of qualified and talented people who spent their careers at commuters or cut rate operators because they were never in the right place at the right time.

To Mr. Eikenberry (sp?) Mr. Taylor, and to others I may have slighted, I owe an apology . I don't mean to imply that you personally are trying to "keep the little guy down." This is a fantastic website and resource, and I have noted how encouraging everyone on here is to the newcomer.

However it can't be denied that, as a group, the folks flying the big jets for the big bucks have an interest in ensuring that the the rest of the pilot population not fly big jets, or even small jets for little bucks. One need look no further than the mainline RJ scope clauses to find evidence of that. If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for the rest of their careers, thereby denying those guys a chance to have a decent career. Why should I as a little guy, support that?

As for me, I look back and I realize I was one of those guys "ruining it for the rest" because I "didn't-care-about-money-I just-wanted-to-fly". When I finally realized that, I took stock of the industry, and decided that I would rather do somthing that allowed me to have a decent salary and lifestyle, rather than risk spending my entire career trying to be that one in a hundred that makes it to, and stays in, the big time.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by skydog

One need look no further than the mainline RJ scope clauses to find evidence of that. If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for the rest of their careers, thereby denying those guys a chance to have a decent career. Why should I as a little guy, support that?

As for me, I look back and I realize I was one of those guys "ruining it for the rest" because I "didn't-care-about-money-I just-wanted-to-fly". When I finally realized that, I took stock of the industry, and decided that I would rather do somthing that allowed me to have a decent salary and lifestyle, rather than risk spending my entire career trying to be that one in a hundred that makes it to, and stays in, the big time.

And what would be wrong if the majors DO have a scope clause limiting RJ flying to them? How can you call a regional a regional when they are flying from IAH-PSP or YYZ-SLC. What is wrong with that flying being done with major airline pilots? Getting those RJs on a higher pay scale?


Remember before these RJs came out you would fly in a 30 seat airplane then move up. THAT IS/WAS PAYING YOUR DUES AT THE TRUE REGIONAL/COMMUTER LEVEL.

Did you cross a picket line?

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by skydog

To some people, an airplane is an airplane. To some pilots 65K is a raise, especially if you are coming from a regional. What would you rather do? Make 30-35K flying a Beech or Metro in crappy weather with no autopilot and no flight attendant; or make twice that flying a modern jet aircraft above the weather, and be able to ring the call button and get a copy of coffee or bottle of water.

Unfortunately, you may be right....look at Extra (casino express) and Allegiant's payscales; they seem to have enough pilots. This isn't a dig at Allegiant or Extra, just an observation.

However it can't be denied that, as a group, the folks flying the big jets for the big bucks have an interest in ensuring that the the rest of the pilot population not fly big jets, or even small jets for little bucks.

How does this put Doug and Don at odds with the average pilot? I don't want to fly any plane for "little bucks", although some would argue that I already am. I would have zero interest in flying for skybus, especially at that propsed payrate, and I dare say most of my contemporaries would feel the same. I make more than that flying a plane 1/3 the size....and I already feel like I'm close the bottom of the barrel as far as airline wages go. There are pilots making double what I make flying planes half the size of the ones I fly.....

Personally, I think anyone with the qualifications to be an airbus street captain should have the common sense to know they're hurting the profession by flying an an A319 at that payrate. Someone with those kind of qualifications should have an easy enough time finding a better job.....

One need look no further than the mainline RJ scope clauses to find evidence of that. If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for the rest of their careers, thereby denying those guys a chance to have a decent career. Why should I as a little guy, support that?

If mainlines hadn't scoped out RJ's, many of the current RJ pilots would be at the majors instead of the regionals....the furloughs after 911 at Delta, USair, American, Continental, Northwest, Independnce, Mesaba and others might have never happened, or at least they would've been a lot less severe. After 9/11, you more or less had RJ's flying ex-mainline routes in response to the reduced demand that occured in a lot of markets.....regionals were hiring while their mainline partners furloughed.

The mainline pilots that want strong scope clauses are looking out for the "major airline career", and if that's your goal, then they're helping you. If not, then yeah, it's probably not helping you. For the vast majority of regional pilots, I would venture to say that a "major airline career" is the goal.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by skydog

However it can't be denied that, as a group, the folks flying the big jets for the big bucks have an interest in ensuring that the the rest of the pilot population not fly big jets, or even small jets for little bucks.

Eureka, I think you've got it! In order for "the folks flying the big jets for the big(?) bucks" to keep doing it that way of course they want every flying job to pay well.

One need look no further than the mainline RJ scope clauses to find evidence of that. If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for the rest of their careers, thereby denying those guys a chance to have a decent career. Why should I as a little guy, support that?

Scope clauses have nothing to do with keeping the other guy's pay low and everything to do with preventing management's from whipsawing pilot groups thus bringing everyone's pay down!

Your quote above should read:

"If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for 2 or 3 years and then moving up to the mainline airlines where all of the jet flying is, thereby ensuring everyone has a fabulous career flying high-paying equipment. As a little-guy, I absolutely support that!"


Kevin

[moocowtex]

However it can't be denied that, as a group, the folks flying the big jets for the big bucks have an interest in ensuring that the the rest of the pilot population not fly big jets, or even small jets for little bucks. One need look no further than the mainline RJ scope clauses to find evidence of that. If the mainline pilots had their way, all the guys at the regionals would be zipping around in 30 seat turboprops for the rest of their careers, thereby denying those guys a chance to have a decent career. Why should I as a little guy, support that?



O.K.....I'm not the most eloquent, but I'll give this a try. I have absolutely no interest in seeing guys "not fly big jets." I also don't want to see guys spending their entire career "zipping around in 30 seat turboprops". I used to be there!! I worked for a regional that, back in the mid 90's, got a few BAE 146's. Now, as cool as I think that plane is, I was horrified we got them on property because they were essentially the size of a small 737. And while the payrate on it seemed pretty good when compared to a Brasilia, I realized it was WAY below what the rate was for a 737 at major airlines. And while the money that was being offered to fly it could have provided an "acceptable" life, I realized the pay probably wouldn't seem so acceptable 15 years down the road with a wife and a few kids to support. So the way this is supposed to work is that you do your time, keep your nose clean, check all the boxes, and eventually move up to one of the better paying jobs flying nice equipment. And for the most part, thats what happens. My current employer didn't exactly come knocking on my door when I had a CFI ticket and 500 hours. Of course we all know of a few people that have gotten hosed somehow, but generally, if you have the qualifications, are not socially inept, and are PATIENT, you will get there. And believe me, once the "newness" of flying that shiny big jet wears off, most people would be willing to go back to flying a 172 if it paid better. I realize this is poorly written, but to do this subject justice, I'd need about 200 pages, and I'm sure no one wants to wade through that. Plus, my time is almost up on this soapbax rental, so I need to get down and go return it.