An uninformed opinion

[DAnbert]

Ok just to se what comes about...
I have been hanging around here for a small while now. One topic that keeps coming up is flying vs. other career paths.
One of the things I have noticed is a trend to say that flying is not a good way to make money. The advice handed out with that is that one should pursue a career in something else and fly recreationally.
So I guess the question is... is it wrong to look at a potential career in aviation as this...
If you figure the cost of flying recreationally the same amount you get to fly as a pilot out of your salary at another "higher paying" job, how much are you really gaining at said job? If you truly love to fly, why not fly and consider the flying time as money in your pocket (that the government cant touch) and live off the "small" salaries as a pilot?
Ok so I know you all have to have somehting to say about this. Bring it. I am new to avitation and like the title says, this is only an uninformed opinion.
I look forward to reading any responces.
Play nice, and GO...

[jtrain609]

I think what most people don't realize is that flying is a VERY small part of the job that you do as a professional pilot. Like the other day I spent 8 hours at work and only blocked 1.5 hours of that. But out of that 8 hours, I also spent 2.5 hours doing pre and post flight with my trainee. It was a solid hour and a half to go and do the following:

-Figure out what we were going to today, discuss it briefly
-Figure out which planes are airworthy
-Go up to dispatch and figure out which one they want us to take
-Go back to MX to get the book for the plane, double check to make sure there is nothing that would ground the airplane
-Check the weather and make sure the aircraft is legal
-Do a full preflight
-Get a clearance to where ever it was that we were going
-NOW we can block out

Then we fly for an hour and a half. After that we need to come back, post flight the aircraft, finish up the MX logs, all the other paperwork, THEN talk about the flight and discuss what we need to accomplish next time.

Now given, I'm in a real low utilization job, but I'm paying my bills by flying none the less. I couldn't tell you what it's like at a regional, but actually flying airplanes is a VERY small part of what I do. I'm a ground instructor, a simulator instructor, a local area guide, a coach, a flight instructor, a captain and somebody that's supposed to know a heck of a lot about the aircraft I'm teaching.

Maybe it's different at the regionals, I dunno. Honestly though, if I were doing NOTHING but flying I'd probably get bored. I used to enjoy toying with computers until I started paying bills with computers. I also used to enjoy going flying to go flying, but not anymore now that I'm paying bills with it. The things I thought were interesting (instrument work, multi engine training, figuring out creative ways to work within the IFR system) are still all challanging, but there's much less fun factor.

Now what I'd LOVE to do is go get some time in a Pitts or get a Tailwheel endorsement. THAT'S fun flying. Jets? Freighters? Passangers? Boxes? Those just pay bills. Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting way to earn a living, but it's not mostly flying.

[fly22]

Danbert, the question I ask is what is good money to you?

[DE727UPS]

Flying professionally and flying for recreation have little in common.

Professional flying is a job and the some of the "fun factor" soon wears off. Some of the "fun factor" remains, though, and is enough to sustain us. For me, the money and time off certainly make the job worth it, but I don't see professional flying as more than a way to make a living, anymore. Yeah, I like doing it and sometimes I still think it's pretty cool, but there are a good many more times I just wish I was at home in my own bed and living my home life.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

-Figure out what we were going to today, discuss it briefly
-Figure out which planes are airworthy
-Go up to dispatch and figure out which one they want us to take
-Go back to MX to get the book for the plane, double check to make sure there is nothing that would ground the airplane
-Check the weather and make sure the aircraft is legal
-Do a full preflight
-Get a clearance to where ever it was that we were going
-NOW we can block out

Wow. We just look at the release, check the WX and head to the plane. All the books we need to check are in the plane within reach of the seat. No need to walk over to MX, and the WX is nicely printed out for us along with the flight plan someone else filed for us. As long as the dispatcher is competent. Shoulda gone for that jet job, John.

I still have more of the "this is a cool job" moments than most people b/c I haven't been doing the airline thing very long. Will it last? I hope so, but who knows. I still want to do the tailwheel thing and eventually get an airplane I can have fun in. Odds are any airplane I get for personal use won't be much like what I fly for the job. I used to want a Bonanza or something, but that doesn't interest me as much. At that point, flying for fun is almost the same as going from point A to point B at my job. I've got the thumbs up to finish my A&P at some point and get a T-6. My wife's response was "Wow. That looks cool. Think I can fly it, too?"

I think most people that still get into flying purely for the money either haven't done their research or are out of touch with reality. Gone are the days of strutting through the airport with a fat load of cash in the bank. My goal is to make as much money as I can in order to live comfortably and support my family. That would have been my goal in any other career path as well. I don't need a flashy car or a $400K house.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

My goal is to make as much money as I can in order to live comfortably and support my family. That would have been my goal in any other career path as well. I don't need a flashy car or a $400K house.

Spot on, man. This is, I believe, what most of the informed career changers are finding out they should be considering, and planning for accordingly.

[LoadMasterC141]

Agreed. Money is certainly not everything. You do need it, but you do not need to be rich to be happy. At least, I don't.

[Texasspilot]

because you're still going under the idea that once you get on the line and you flying from dallas to houston for the 12th time this month its still gonna be as fun as flying that 150 to the grass strip for the 100 dollar burger...its not. Unfortunatly it turns into a job.

[DA-2000guy]

As far as fun goes, I have done both airline and corporate, that said Corporate is MUCH more fun. You don't fly routes/bids/gates/seasons. Corporate you go to far out of the way places, Aspen, Palm Beach, Europe, Africa. You get to see a different way of life. Granted flying corporate you would never be able to afford to go to these places by yourself. (Nice to have someone else pick up the tab), The family aspect of it stinks. Your wife/husband needs to be very understanding. Things change/planes break/ you miss bithdays/soccer games/date night.....all that is hard on a marriage. But if you find the right partner (I did) it makes the job much easier.

Remember how much fun it was to drive when you turned 16? Not so much fun anymore is it?...LOL just one way to look at it.

[LoadMasterC141]

Yes but I'll take that monotony over sitting here in my Dilbert cubicle performing both mundane repetitive analysis and formatting of data.

I'll even take a pay cut. Maybe I will get SO bored of that Houston to Dallas run that I'll have to take a different run. Maybe I will get so bored of regionals that I would have to quit and fly cargo, instruct, or even leave the profession. I Don't think I would work for a short haul regional, others, like XJT, offer alot more variety. Nevertheless, life is too short to stay here doing this.

[flyguy969]

I know there are some people who get into flying for the fun, challange, and money and other who get into it ONLY for the money. The second group are the ones who will always complain no matter how much money they make and probably will never be happy. But if you put them into any job (and it is for the money) I really think it would be the same deal and they would be miserable. Point is, yes most of us want the money, and thats cool, but when the money is not there ya gotta love flying or you are in for a loooooong career.

[LoadMasterC141]

Reciprocally, when the money is there, but you have no interest whatsoever in what you are doing, the result is equal.

I took this job because it raised me from $50k/yr to 70 plus a nice bonus. The problem is, I hate the job with every bone in my body.

[flyguy969]

Very good point Loadmaster

[DAnbert]

What is good money to me? Well I don't mind telling you all that I dont make alot of money where I am at. I am currently in the mid 20's range with not much hope of moving that number out of the 20's in the next 10 years. I am a technical support representative and I also build trade show displays for my company. From what I am seeing in the airline industry is that I can make it out of the 20's in the next 10 years, and I get to fly.
Don't get me wrong, I don't need alot of money. I like my old wagoneer (its paid off), I like my small house(low maintenance costs, cozy), I like my life simple and with out a lot of clutter. I just want to ebjoy my job, and make enough money to live on.
I know the wow factor goes down hill after time, it does with every thing. Using the car analogy, I have been driving for 20 years. most of my driving is repetative, but I still find myself enjoying it. It is all a matter of how you look at things in life.
This is axactly why I come here every time I can, a variety of people that are willing to share their outlooks on this life as a pilot or as a pilot to be or even as someone who just wants to be a pilot but maybe wont ever.
Thank you all for your replies.

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by DAnbert

I like my life simple and with out a lot of clutter

This sentence sounds like being a pilot may not be for you. They have tons of responsibility and from what I've heard that doesn't equal to simple life when you include work.

Originally Posted by DAnbert

I just want to enjoy my job, and make enough money to live on.

This is much better all the way around

[skydog]

It's nice to enjoy what you do, but job satisfaction is not a form of payment your creditors will accept. That's why I get so annoyed when I hear about people saying things like "I don't care about money, I just wanna fly." They are the ones ruining it for the rest of us, because those who "just wanna fly" usually do it for lower wages. That's what is killing this profession.

The irony is that the ones who "Just wanna fly" are usually the ones that (later on) are pi$$ing and moaning about the #####ty pay.

If those who "just wanna fly" would stay out of professional aviation and stick to flying on weekends for fun, the profession would be better off.

[Doug Taylor]

Sadly, there's a lot of truth in the above statement.

[mtsu_av8er]

Unfortunately, there is a group of pilots right in between the two extremes.

There are some pilots that absolutely LOVE to fly! And, they're not afraid to admit that they love to fly! While they may fly from Nashville to Atlanta or St Louis to Kansas City 20 or 25 times per month, they still love it! They don't mind doing the same thing every single day. To some of them, flying the Bunni 2 arrival is more fun than going to get a $100 hamburger!

So, as long as they're not selling their soul to the devil, is there something wrong with that?

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by DA-2000guy

Remember how much fun it was to drive when you turned 16? Not so much fun anymore is it?...LOL just one way to look at it.

moral of this story is dont get old and stuffy and drive a minivan.

[jtrain609]

Nothing wrong with that at all, Lloyd, but you're flying a plane that weighs 20 times less than what the regionals fly and get paid more to do it. There IS something wrong with that, but it ain't on your end.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Unfortunately, there is a group of pilots right in between the two extremes.

There are some pilots that absolutely LOVE to fly! And, they're not afraid to admit that they love to fly! While they may fly from Nashville to Atlanta or St Louis to Kansas City 20 or 25 times per month, they still love it! They don't mind doing the same thing every single day. To some of them, flying the Bunni 2 arrival is more fun than going to get a $100 hamburger!

So, as long as they're not selling their soul to the devil, is there something wrong with that?

[Realms09]

Originally Posted by DAnbert

If you figure the cost of flying recreationally the same amount you get to fly as a pilot out of your salary at another "higher paying" job, how much are you really gaining at said job? If you truly love to fly, why not fly and consider the flying time as money in your pocket (that the government cant touch) and live off the "small" salaries as a pilot?

There's a big difference. It's all about having control over your life. An example:

Situation A: $25,000 a year as a professional pilot
100 units of flying fun as a professional pilot

Situation B: $50,000 a year as a professional outside of aviation
$25,000 of that is used to buy 100 units of flying fun doing
aerobatics, or something else that suits you

These situations might be equivalent to you, and perhaps they are, if your life is running smoothly. However, let's suppose you run into a challenge and life gets real. Perhaps you and your wife just had a child that unfortunately has some disability that needs special care, which costs money. In situation B you can immediately cut off your flying to have more resources to take care of your family. In situation A you are stuck with your flying, which is no longer as important. You are left wondering how you will give your child the life he or she deserves.

Another thing, which young pilots might gloss over, is health insurance. While training to get your ratings and working at the lower level jobs (CFI) it is unlikely you will have health insurance from your employer. While at the beginning of your career you are likely in tip-top shape and it is unlikely that you will develop a nasty medical condition, these things do occur. I've had a couple of things pop up that in the end were neither life altering nor medical-affecting, but they were costly and needed to be taken care of. Also, accidents and injuries happen to everyone and are blind to your youth. If you are unlucky and get in an accident without health insurance, it could bankrupt you and anyone who cares for you. At least with the jobs I am looking at, health insurance is more readily provided outside of professional aviation.

Once upon a time assuming these risks was part of how one earned the reward of a big airline job and a very good life for one's family. Those jobs are fading, yet the risk remains.

Life is full of risk, and one should not be afraid of engaging in risky activities. By all means, figure out what your dreams are and pursue them with gusto. Just be aware of the risks you take and make an informed decision.

[desertdog71]

DAnbert,

While getting opinions is great and will help you form a picture in your mind. The truth is that only YOU can decide what matters to you. I for one can't deal with staying still and working in an office or restaurant or hotel. I guess I just have itchy feet and like to see different things. I have planned and made good decisions early on that have made the financial aspect of this industry a little less painful.

I can honestly say that my opinions have changed on a great many things over the past 8 months being on this forum. I can say that in my current family situation that taking out loans and going after this career would not be an option at all. However, on the other hand if I was a single guy, it would not be too terrible to deal with.

My family is used to me being gone for 3-4 weeks at a time and only seeing me 2-3 days a month. This career will bring those numbers down greatly but I will still be away from home quite a bit. I am going to miss some important things in my kids lives. I can only hope they will understand.

I also however know kids that had two parents that both worked and they never saw either parents. What I can do for my kids is give them a mother at this point. Again though that comes down to past planning and decisions I have made.

Be aware of the pros and cons of the business, and try to picture yourself in that situation. Now take a good deal of the fun factor and newness of it all away. Can you still see yourself happy? That is the question you need to ask yourself.

[kellwolf]

I'd really like to look at the flying community in black and white as it seems a lot of people do. Either you love to fly and you've sold out or you're in it for the money. To some, there is no in-between. I'm double-damned since I work for the regionals. To some, it's cool to like to fly in 135 or at FedEx and UPS, they get paid a bit more. If you like your job at the regionals, then you're a sell out and dragging the industry down. I call BS on that. I'm doing all I can to pull the pay and QoL up, but b/c of my attitude towards my job and my job itself, I'm often called a "sell out" or "bottom feeder." That's the main reason I read FlightInfo about once or twice every six months. It normally takes one post on PCL for me to go "Oh yeah. That's why." I knew what I was getting into when I started down this path, almost entirely because of THIS website and the people that contribute to it. I still decided it was better than making $16K a year telling people that their kid's too short to ride Space Mountain.....

[jtrain609]

Naw, the guys that are selling out are the guys that vote for pay cuts for growth at the regional level, fly larger equipment for the same or less money than they're making on their smaller equipment and guys that think that as soon as they get their 1,000 TPIC or whatever it is that they want.

Every entry level aviation job is a bottom feeder job.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Realms09

Situation A: $25,000 a year as a professional pilot
100 units of flying fun as a professional pilot

Situation B: $50,000 a year as a professional outside of aviation
$25,000 of that is used to buy 100 units of flying fun doing
aerobatics, or something else that suits you

The $25,000 as a professional pilot doesn't last forever, though. I think someone can make just as good of a living as a pilot, as they can being a desk jockey. Too many people overexaggerate this idea that being a pilot is a life of poverty, meanwhile everybody else is living the good life. That simply is not true.

Bill collectors do not care that it is only first year pay, or that you "love what you do". I understand that. It is easy to say, "well, you have to love what you do", but somehow you do have to pay the bills. Being a professional pilot is a career that allows you to pay the bills. I agree pilots should make more than a desk jockey, but what I don't understand, is when I hear peopel talk about quitting a "cushy" $70K desk job, and then talk about a $70K regional captain as though they are in poverty, and can't pay bills.

I'll say what I've said before; there is a difference between not making good money, and not making what you deserve. You can make "good" money as a pilot, just not what you deserve.