Runway Visual Range - RVR

[meritflyer]

I read that RVR is not reported unless the prevailing visibility is less than 2 miles or the RVR is 6000' or less.

Cant find a reference in the AIM.

Any help?

[mtsu_av8er]

From 7-1-16 (g) of The AIM: Ten minute maximum and minimum RVR values for the designated RVR runway are reported in the body of the aviation weather report when the prevailing visibility is less than one mile and/or the RVR is 6,000 feet or less. ATCTs report RVR when the prevailing visibility is 1 mile or less and/or the RVR is 6,000 feet or less.

Link is here!

[v1valarob]

Im preparing for my AE interview and to be completely honest, this is the first time I have gone this in depth with RVR. I had no clue there was a touchdown RVR, Mid-RVR and Rollout RVR. I understand what RVR is and how its figured out, but what Im not understanding is how RVR is used when it comes to lower than standard take-off minimums.

On the LAX Jepps for example from runways 6L, 7L/R, 24 L/R, 25 L/R for 1&2 engine the minimums are 6-6-6 when CL and RCLM are available. The minimums are RVR 16 or 1/4SM when you just have adequate vis. Then it lists standard minimums.

What I dont understand is why you would ever go with standard mins, or how thats even decided. The way Im reading this is, if I have CL and RCLM and 2 of the 3 RVRs are reporting, and the RVRs are at least 6-6-6, Im good to go. But lets say the centerline lights are broken, I have to go with the minimums of RVR 16 or 1/4SM as long as I have adequate vis ref. But how will I know that I have adequate visual reference before Im speeding down the runway?

Or am I not reading this right at all? Also, I have never seen all 3 RVRs ever reported for an airport. I have only ever seen something like R19R/4500V6000. Which I am understanding to be the lowest reported and highest reported RVR within a 10min period.

-Rob

[casey]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

Also, I have never seen all 3 RVRs ever reported for an airport. I have only ever seen something like R19R/4500V6000. Which I am understanding to be the lowest reported and highest reported RVR within a 10min period.

"Jetlink 1234, RVR touchdown 700, mid 600, rollout 100, runway 1L cleared for takeoff"

[germb747]

Normally, to take off you'd need to have weather that would allow you to shoot the approach back into the field where you departed. If the weather goes below that, you need to file a 'takeoff alternate', and then can use lower mins IAW your Ops Specs. Having dual RVR readouts may enable you to use even lower mins, but not every runway is so equipped.

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

Im preparing for my AE interview and to be completely honest, this is the first time I have gone this in depth with RVR. I had no clue there was a touchdown RVR, Mid-RVR and Rollout RVR. I understand what RVR is and how its figured out, but what Im not understanding is how RVR is used when it comes to lower than standard take-off minimums.

On the LAX Jepps for example from runways 6L, 7L/R, 24 L/R, 25 L/R for 1&2 engine the minimums are 6-6-6 when CL and RCLM are available. The minimums are RVR 16 or 1/4SM when you just have adequate vis. Then it lists standard minimums.

What I dont understand is why you would ever go with standard mins, or how thats even decided. The way Im reading this is, if I have CL and RCLM and 2 of the 3 RVRs are reporting, and the RVRs are at least 6-6-6, Im good to go. But lets say the centerline lights are broken, I have to go with the minimums of RVR 16 or 1/4SM as long as I have adequate vis ref. But how will I know that I have adequate visual reference before Im speeding down the runway?

Or am I not reading this right at all? Also, I have never seen all 3 RVRs ever reported for an airport. I have only ever seen something like R19R/4500V6000. Which I am understanding to be the lowest reported and highest reported RVR within a 10min period.

-Rob

This is how I explained it for years (and I've forgotten somethings, so you'll have to do a bit of research...)

Let's start with the METAR with your R19R/4500V6000. Honestly, I don't know what the time period is. I do know is it's a trend indicator. You should plan on the lowest RVR. I'm sure everyone knew that. A WX smart person could I'm sure give far better commentary.

On to stuff I really know about: (The stuff I copy/pasted is from our airline, and it references 5/5/5 and 1000/1000 instead of 6/6/6 and 1200/1000, but the 5/5/5 requirements equal the 6/6/6 requirements and the 1000/1000 equal the 1200/1000 requirements)

Takeoffs in lower than standard visibility are authorized in OPSPECS (Operational Specifications) by the FEDS. OPSPECS are basically a menu. Operators, such as American Eagle, apply as many paragraphs as required by their operations. Lower than standard takeoffs are one of the items. Specifically Paragraph C78.

Standard vis, is what it is. If you have nothing available to you for reduced criteria as listed below:

We're going to start with the most restrictive and work backwards. It's basically up to the airport as to which is the lowest min you may use.

For a 500 RVR take off you need:

(3) Touchdown zone RVR 500 (150m) (beginning of takeoff run), mid-RVR 500 (150m), and rollout
RVR 500 (150m), provided all of the following visual aids and RVR equipment are available.
(a) Operative runway centerline lights (CL).
(b) Serviceable runway centerline markings (RCLM).
(c) RVR Reporting Systems.
(i) Where only two RVR reporting systems are installed, the touchdown and rollout RVR
sensors are both required and controlling.
(ii) Where three RVR reporting systems are installed on the runway to be used:
(A) The touchdown zone, mid and rollout RVR reports are controlling for all operations.
(B) The failure of any one transmitter will not affect operations provided the remaining

two RVR sensors are reporting values at or above the appropriate minima in this subparagraph.

Let's say a runway is snow covered, but the centerline lights are shining thru the snow, you'd take a 6/6/6 runway and apply 1000/1000 you need:

Touchdown zone RVR 1000 (beginning of takeoff run) and rollout RVR 1000, provided all of the
following visual aids and RVR equipment are available.
(a) Operative runway centerline lights (CL).
(b) RVR Reporting Systems. Two operative RVR reporting systems serving the runway to be
used, both of which are required and controlling.
(i) The touchdown zone and rollout RVR reports are controlling for all operations.
(ii) A mid-RVR report may be substituted for either a touchdown zone RVR report if a
touchdown zone report is not available or a rollout RVR report if a rollout RVR report is not available.
(iii) Where four RVR reporting systems are installed (i.e., touchdown zone, mid, rollout, and
far end sensors), the far end sensor, which is not required, may provide advisory information to pilots or

may be substituted for the rollout sensor RVR report if the rollout sensor RVR report is not available.

1/4 SM or 1600 RVR uses "Adequate Visual reference" I'm going to copy and paste the definition here -

(1) Touchdown zone RVR 1600 (beginning of takeoff run) or visibility/runway visual value (RVV) ¼
statute mile, provided at least one of the following visual aids listed in a-d is available.
(a) Operative high intensity runway lights (HIRL).
(b) Operative runway centerline lights (CL).
(c) Serviceable runway centerline marking (RCLM).
Note: my emphasis added(d) In circumstances when none of the above visual aids are available, visibility or RVV ¼ statute mile may still be used, provided other runway markings or runway lighting provide pilots with adequate visual reference to continuously identify the takeoff surface and maintain directional control

throughout the takeoff run.

Best of luck!!

[v1valarob]

So in short you work your way from the lowest mins possible (6-6-6) and go up as necessary. If you have CL and have RCLM and 2 out of the 3 RVRs are working and reporting at or above mins, your good to go. If RCLM cant be seen, then your mins go up to RVR 16 or 1/4sm. Am I getting it?!?!

-Rob

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by casey

"Jetlink 1234, RVR touchdown 700, mid 600, rollout 100, runway 1L cleared for takeoff"

So the first time you heard the RVR is when cleared for take off??? And if Im understanding this correctly, if mins are 6-6-6, then you cant take off with the above read-outs.

-Rob

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

So in short you work your way from the lowest mins possible (6-6-6) and go up as necessary. If you have CL and have RCLM and 2 out of the 3 RVRs are working and reporting at or above mins, your good to go. If RCLM cant be seen, then your mins go up to RVR 16 or 1/4sm. Am I getting it?!?!

-Rob

Thats how I work it. That too, young Jedi, is what indoc is for. I believe that they'll be impressed that you know this much. Don't forget, sans the definition of Adequate Vis, it's all a cheat sheet on the back of the 10-9.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by Polar742

Thats how I work it. That too, young Jedi, is what indoc is for. I believe that they'll be impressed that you know this much. Don't forget, sans the definition of Adequate Vis, it's all a cheat sheet on the back of the 10-9.

It seems to be a common question with AE.

Thank you very much sir for your help!

-Rob

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

It seems to be a common question with AE.

Thank you very much sir for your help!

-Rob

You're very welcome. Best of luck, and let us know the outcome...

[Gonzo]

Most of my tech interview at AE was RVR.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by casey

"Jetlink 1234, RVR touchdown 700, mid 600, rollout 100, runway 1L cleared for takeoff"

I'm pretty new at this sort of stuff, but I'm thinking that's not legal. You only NEED 2 out of 3, but if you have three and one is below the runway mins (or your opspec mins) you can't be going.

At least, that's what I thought.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm pretty new at this sort of stuff, but I'm thinking that's not legal. You only NEED 2 out of 3, but if you have three and one is below the runway mins (or your opspec mins) you can't be going.

At least, that's what I thought.

All three are controlling on takeoff (assuming there are 3). It must be 6/6/6 and have the appropriate visual cues.

[UPSpilot]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

Im preparing for my AE interview and to be completely honest, this is the first time I have gone this in depth with RVR. I had no clue there was a touchdown RVR, Mid-RVR and Rollout RVR. I understand what RVR is and how its figured out, but what Im not understanding is how RVR is used when it comes to lower than standard take-off minimums.

On the LAX Jepps for example from runways 6L, 7L/R, 24 L/R, 25 L/R for 1&2 engine the minimums are 6-6-6 when CL and RCLM are available. The minimums are RVR 16 or 1/4SM when you just have adequate vis. Then it lists standard minimums.

What I dont understand is why you would ever go with standard mins, or how thats even decided. The way Im reading this is, if I have CL and RCLM and 2 of the 3 RVRs are reporting, and the RVRs are at least 6-6-6, Im good to go. But lets say the centerline lights are broken, I have to go with the minimums of RVR 16 or 1/4SM as long as I have adequate vis ref. But how will I know that I have adequate visual reference before Im speeding down the runway?

Or am I not reading this right at all? Also, I have never seen all 3 RVRs ever reported for an airport. I have only ever seen something like R19R/4500V6000. Which I am understanding to be the lowest reported and highest reported RVR within a 10min period.

-Rob

This is in NO way an attack on you, but your case is a classic example of what's wrong with the regional airlines today. You are interviewing with an airline to be an airline pilot, yet you admittedly have "no clue" how RVR works. Frankly, if you are interviewing for an airline pilot position, you should not only know about how RVR works, but should have first hand experience in dealing with RVR situations. The airlines should not be a flight school. Unfortunately, in today's market, they have become one.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

This is in NO way an attack on you, but your case is a classic example of what's wrong with the regional airlines today. You are interviewing with an airline to be an airline pilot, yet you admittedly have "no clue" how RVR works. Frankly, if you are interviewing for an airline pilot position, you should not only know about how RVR works, but should have first hand experience in dealing with RVR situations. The airlines should not be a flight school. Unfortunately, in today's market, they have become one.

In his defense, you can read all day about RVR and how it may be applicable to departure minimums but, in the part 91 world it doesn't apply and if you can't exercise something you've read with real world experience, it slowly dwindles away.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

All three are controlling on takeoff (assuming there are 3). It must be 6/6/6 and have the appropriate visual cues.

That's sort of what I thought. Also, we can actually do 5/5/5 if the airport will support it. SDF is the only place I've ever seen 5/5/5 authorized.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

That's sort of what I thought. Also, we can actually do 5/5/5 if the airport will support it. SDF is the only place I've ever seen 5/5/5 authorized.

5/5/5! Yikes!

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

This is in NO way an attack on you, but your case is a classic example of what's wrong with the regional airlines today. You are interviewing with an airline to be an airline pilot, yet you admittedly have "no clue" how RVR works. Frankly, if you are interviewing for an airline pilot position, you should not only know about how RVR works, but should have first hand experience in dealing with RVR situations. The airlines should not be a flight school. Unfortunately, in today's market, they have become one.

To be completely fair, he would have had to have airline or Pt135 indoc to have this knowledge. If not, he would have had to study it academically. Possibly write a paper on it.

Back in the 60's pilots were hired into no BS machines with little more than a Commercial/Multi ticket. I knew a FSDO inspector that got hired onto Lake Central on a DC-3 with a Commercial/Insturment, and the airline got him his multi.

We get back into the viscious cycle of you can't get experience, unless you have the experience. You can't get any experience, unless you have experience.

We've all had our breaks. Sometimes people get a break in this discipline quicker than others. Some people take decades to get the break it only takes others a couple years. Maybe it's a buddy-of-a-buddy who takes you out in his twin to log a couple hours. Maybe it's a once-in-a-lifetime interview. Maybe it's some random pilot you meet on an aviator's forum that helps you get the job (that happened to me). Or, perhaps, just you get blessed with timing.

I'm here to pay-it-forward, and offer advice when asked, or my experience could help out.

I WILL NEVER criticise a pilot on the quest for experience and knowledge.

I WILL NEVER criticise a pilot for getting their foot in the door, and when allowed in, question how they got their experience.

I WILL share what I can to help those with less experience, and less knowledge in my professional discipline.


That's all I'm writing on this subject....

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

This is in NO way an attack on you, but your case is a classic example of what's wrong with the regional airlines today. You are interviewing with an airline to be an airline pilot, yet you admittedly have "no clue" how RVR works. Frankly, if you are interviewing for an airline pilot position, you should not only know about how RVR works, but should have first hand experience in dealing with RVR situations. The airlines should not be a flight school. Unfortunately, in today's market, they have become one.

Its not that I dont know how RVR works, I know what "Runway visual Range" is. I just didnt understand how to read the minimums on the back of the approach plate. 3 different sets of minimums to someone who was always taught "your part 91, you have no take-off mins" is going to lead me to some questions about these new procedures.

-Rob

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by Polar742

I'm here to pay-it-forward, and offer advice when asked, or my experience could help out.

I WILL NEVER criticise a pilot on the quest for experience and knowledge.

I WILL NEVER criticise a pilot for getting their foot in the door, and when allowed in, question how they got their experience.

I WILL share what I can to help those with less experience, and less knowledge in my professional discipline.


That's all I'm writing on this subject....

I<3 me some Polar Bear

[meyers9163]

...

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

This is in NO way an attack on you, but your case is a classic example of what's wrong with the regional airlines today. You are interviewing with an airline to be an airline pilot, yet you admittedly have "no clue" how RVR works. Frankly, if you are interviewing for an airline pilot position, you should not only know about how RVR works, but should have first hand experience in dealing with RVR situations. The airlines should not be a flight school. Unfortunately, in today's market, they have become one.

Hey man why don't you 'splain it to him?
Maybe instead of a diatribe on what's wrong with regional airlines today, you could explan this concept.
That's why he came here. I consider this to be a place for hangar talk . . .

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

Hey man why don't you 'splain it to him?
Maybe instead of a diatribe on what's wrong with regional airlines today, you could explan this concept.
That's why he came here. I consider this to be a place for hangar talk . . .

Yeah that! This is what has started going wrong on this forum.... Too many attacks like these!

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

This is what has started going wrong on this forum.... Too many attacks like these!

You think what I posted is an ATTACK!?!?!?!?


dude you haven't even become old skool and you're going to . . .











.I'm just kidding