"For Many Years to Come"

[albatross]

[ QUOTE ]
So you'd be ok taking a pay cut to $9600.

Very big of you


[/ QUOTE ]

As I've made clear in other posts, I 'm very much in favor of pilots being well paid. That amount of scarifice and that level of responsibility, on a daily basis, for the lives of others deserves a high salary to go with it. I hope for his sake and for sake of others willing to make those same sacrifices that this pilot will see his former pay and position restored as soon as possible. However, that said, it's a heck of a lot easier to get by on $95,000 than $9600. Not luxury, but certainly comfortable. The lower your income, the more it hurts to have any of it taken away, either by taxes or pay cuts.

Not saying what happened to this fella didn't suck, and it's definately discouraging. But unless he's as dumb as I am when it comes to finances, he and his family will get by fine until things change for the better.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh believe me, I know.

Anywhere you really want to live in this country is going to cost some big smackeroonies. We had a couple over at our house last night that found a fairly nice 2800 sq'ft house for around $210,000 without a 'lot premium'. Of course it's "zero lot lined", backs up to another house, 100% plain dirt, no view and 40 miles west of downtown PHX (far west of the west loop of 202 for you PHX people)

Holy crap! That's damned near Yuma! They could almost justify flying a regional from there to downtown PHX and getting a cab to work because of the impending traffic snarls.



[/ QUOTE ]

You ain't kidding. I'm planning on possibly buying a home in the PHX area soon here. And when I say PHX, Doug, I'm using the term relatively...the home I want to buy is in Johnson Ranch, south of Queen Creek just inside Pinal County. Inside of Maricopa County, this same home (about 8 miles away) is $80K more in price! I'm not even thinking of looking into North PHX/SDL with homes in the late $200s/early $300s.

Pardon the digression though..........

IMO, the days of the old airline "A" scale are long gone, and won't ever back.

The day I showed up at ERAU for orientation (Doug: It was little Joey and me), the head of the flight department gets up on the podium and opens the orientation with the statement "Did you know that a 747 international Captain at United Airlines makes about $300,000+ per year? Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to ERAU, blah, blah, blah" Nice selling point then, but not so much now.

Regards, ops topics for airlines, I'm not a huge fan of Regional Jets, but at the same time, I think they're here to stay, and I can't understand why Boeing and Airbus don't jump on entering that market. It seems that the market is becoming [I'm reaching here...this is merely an outsiders view in, so correct me if I'm wrong] more of a point to point system rather than one of moving pax from the spokes to the hub. I say this due to the large amount fo RJs entering the market. IMO, Airbus and Boeing could easily jump on this bandwagon and design a 100 seater RJ along with "upgrade" aircraft such as 737-size for larger markets, and a 767-size one for even larger markets. For overseas ops/international, they could design a new series of 3-engine transports that would not be constrained by the limitations of ETOPS, and offer 3rd engine safety without the cost of a 4-engine airliner. IMO, the A380 probably won't be a huge hit, profit-wise, since having more smaller planes is better than having one large plane in today's market. One of my friends was telling me that in the 70s, Braniff would operate two 727s for every one DC-10 that American operated to the same destinations. Both airlines had approximately the same amount of seats, but Braniff had the flexibility to offer more departure times to allow more flexibility for pax; much like the modern-day Southwest does.

Just one mil pilot's perspective from outside in. All in all, I think I'm safer maintaining federal employment...maybe transfer to US Customs when I get even more sick (than I already am) of the AF.

[chunk75]

Don't know about "transferring" to Customs...but I do know that when you are interested, make sure you already applied the previous year! It takes a *long* time to get on with customs. Most average about a year, even coming from AD.

Chunk

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know about "transferring" to Customs...but I do know that when you are interested, make sure you already applied the previous year! It takes a *long* time to get on with customs. Most average about a year, even coming from AD.

Chunk

[/ QUOTE ]

I should've said "getting hired on with......". By the transfer comment, I was inferring of keeping federal employment status, benefits-wise.

[Snow]

I think people's problems is they always spend all of their money reguardless of what they earn, so in that way you NEVER have enough money.

You don't have to have cable, you don't have to have a kickass stereo system or a new car you don't have to live in a ritzy neabourhood. As long as there's a roof over your head and food on the table that's all you really need.

I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money that's your problem but please don't complain about not having enough money.

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people's problems is they always spend all of their money reguardless of what they earn, so in that way you NEVER have enough money.

You don't have to have cable, you don't have to have a kickass stereo system or a new car you don't have to live in a ritzy neabourhood. As long as there's a roof over your head and food on the table that's all you really need.

I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money that's your problem but please don't complain about not having enough money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just about the most absurd thing you have ever written Snow.

[MarineNav]

Hmmm...no one's mentioned that the unions are partly to blame as well. There's plenty of "blame" to go around and the little guys usually end up paying for the mistakes made by management. It just happens that pilots are well paid "little guys".

JR

[Capt. Spud]

I know I don't post much on here, but I have the exact same view as Snow.

Obviously, everyone wants a high standard of living and to some they just don't realise what a high state of luxury that they live in, then they start taking it for granted.

I think we can all learn to be a little more humble and grateful for what we have.

Just an insight into how I *try* to look at things.

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I don't post much on here, but I have the exact same view as Snow.
Obviously, everyone wants a high standard of living and to some they just don't realise what a high state of luxury that they live in, then they start taking it for granted.


[/ QUOTE ]

I still think that is silly, granted may people live paycheck to paycheck, are driving cars that cost more than what my father paid for his house 30 years ago, even more people are running around with credit card dept in the 5+ digit range.

Those are the people who I have no sympathy for when their dot com job goes dot bomb.

But there is another sector of the population who don’t fall into that sector.

Mrs. E and I have virtually no debt. We do carry mortgages on two of our houses, but no more than 40% of the value of the homes. We pay our credit card off 100% every month, except maybe once or twice a year where we let it float some. We have invested well, and have access to over 150% of our combined annual income. in cash, with one phone call. but all of that comes at a price.

I stayed at a level that negated advancement for 10 years, to ensure home stability.

We only buy used cars, all late model and under warranty, but used nonetheless, and we only pay cash.

We are pretty much homebodies, we both travel for work so we have no *need* to fly/travel some more.. so our idea of an ideal vacation is a week hiding in the mountains hiking or snowshoeing.

So to sit around and say, Hey taking a pay cut because you (generic you) are too irresponsible with you money is just plain wrong.

If I want to spend my hard earned dollars one bill at a time slipping it not the strippers thong.. Who are you to tell me it’s wrong. ...

[EatSleepFly]

I agree with Eagle here. The point isn't how much he was making before or after the pay cut, its how large the pay cut was. I make $16k/year roughly, I get paid twice a month, and almost every penny of it goes to living expenses. If my pay got cut by 40%, I'd be on the street. It doesnt matter if you make $16k, or $100k, a 40% paycut is definitely something to bitch about. Everyone should try to live within their means. People who are doing just that with their $100k/year salary will no longer be able to do it when that gets chopped by 40%, and that isn't fair. Especially for a pilot who's worked so hard and dedicated so much to get there. Like I said, its the size of the pay cut thats something to bitch about, not the size of the paycheck. If I went from $157k to $95k, I'd be royally pissed too!

[Doug Taylor]

I remember when I was a Beech 1900 FO earning $14,400. Ends met because I lived in low-income, rent-controlled housing, considered a can of generic brand green beans a meal in itself and everything I owned could fit in the back of a 1992 pontiac grand am.

When I saw that Northwest was hiring pilots, starting at $49,000, I thought that "Wow, if I'm living on $14,400 a year, that's easily an extra $35,000 that I'll be able to play with! Wow, I'd be rolling in the dough.

I got hired at Delta in 1998 and new hire pay was $2000/month. Going from a 2nd year captain salary of $16,500 to earning $2000/month was like dying and going to heaven. I was so excited to get that first pay check because I could purchase red meat, take out my girlfriend to TGI Fridays every once in a while and afford to purchase beer in a bar, rather than a 6-pack of Old Milwaukee. We're talking "fat" pockets for Doug.

Then I realized that a lot of my classmates were ex-military where they had been earning in the $60,000 range, had a wife, children and a mortgage. $2,000/month is a much different animal when you're trying to put food on the table and pay a mortgage. Many, if not most, of the former military pilots (and some regional pilots) started saving years in advance to weather significantly lower probationary pay and some took second jobs.

In short, the monthly $2,000 that I was so ecstatic about was the same $2,000 that another person was trying to raise a family with while keeping the lights on.

So when people deride the situation with the AA captain going from $157K/year to $90K/year (or whatever the figure was), I think you need to walk a while in that man's moccassins before casting judgement on his situation.

[albatross]

Raising a family on $2000 a month would indeed be difficult, if not impossible. My girlfriend struggles to support herself and her 3 year-old daughter on $1400 a month. If it weren't for tax credits, she wouldn't be able to make it. Getting by on $95,000 a year is different matter, I think. My parents' combined income equalled a little less than that. Not the lap of luxury, to be sure, but comfortable. My parents always had new cars, and put two kids through college. I feel extremely fortunate that I don't have a dime of school debt, unlike many of my friends.

I took Snow's point earlier to mean that if you can't raise a family on $95,000 a year, and comfortably, then you're doing something wrong. In counterpoint to Eagle's argument: If you spend it all on strippers, and then complain that you can't make ends meet, well you've lost me.

Again, I am the first person to advocate for pilots' making more than a decent living. But the thing that makes me feel bad for the guy in question is not that he has to sell his summer home (in my family, anything more than one house is considered a luxury, lucky to have one) but that he's worked his ass off to get where he is and has the right to expect more from the people he's working for.

[Doug Taylor]

Throw her some dollars, man!

[wizard96]

I just like to say no matter what salary you earn, a pay cut is still a pay cut. Someone who makes $150,000/year does not like taking a pay cut anymore than a person making $24,000/year. Once we have our jobs and are used to the income we are paid, it is very difficult for anyone to be asked to take less compensation no matter the job. We are all compensated for our skills, knowledge, expertise and expect to be paid accordingly.

Being asked or told to take less money than someone in the same profession is very difficult. I wouldn't be critical to pilots who have accomplished their dreams and maybe compensate better than you or I. Isn't that the reason why you or anyone else is trying to work in this profession besides for the love of flying?

Plainly, pay cuts hurt no matter the profession. Yes you may believe it is easier for someone with more money but until you walk in that persons shoes you are just speculating.

[tonyw]

The thing that steams me isn't that there are pay cuts being implemented and furloughs.

It's that the buttheads calling for them are the ones who steered their airlines into billions of dollars of losses, yet they're collecting tens of millions in compensation. And they're telling people who make five percent of their salary that sacrifice is needed?

Screw that.

[albatross]

[ QUOTE ]
Throw her some dollars, man!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, if only I had the dollars to throw. I help out when I can, mostly in the form of babysitting.

[Kristie]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think people's problems is they always spend all of their money reguardless of what they earn, so in that way you NEVER have enough money.

You don't have to have cable, you don't have to have a kickass stereo system or a new car you don't have to live in a ritzy neabourhood. As long as there's a roof over your head and food on the table that's all you really need.

I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money that's your problem but please don't complain about not having enough money.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is just about the most absurd thing you have ever written Snow.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I disagree.... snow's right (IMO) in that we take a lot of things forgranted and we really only need the basics to survive... granted, having the extra's makes living easier and fun'er...i'm glad to have a roof over my head, fresh & clean water to drink etc... I enjoy using my hammock, but it's not a necessity that my life depends on - it's a luxury!

most people do end up spending what they earn or as doug calls it: make more, spend more....

one of the reasons doug and I bought the house we have today is that we didn't want to overspend and be at the point some or most people are today, which is: house/car broke... too much home or too much car means you can't buy furniture or toilet paper or new tires when it comes time to needing it....you end up eating a can of beans on the floor cuz you can't afford anything but the house/car....

I think it's very important to take into account that some day, you might lose your job or you might be downgraded and have to deal with a paycut or you might get sick and have many medical expenses.. you name the "nasty" - but they do come up... the thing to keep in mind is that if your prepared and if you've managed your money wisely, then it won't hurt as bad and it'll be more of an pride hurt than a "financial" sting...

complaining about having to deal with a paycut is one thing... but complaining about not ever having enough $$ is really off the wall if you have a good job that pays "well" and are working hard to maintain it or further in your career...

just my opinion!

[albatross]

Yeah. What she said.

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say I disagree.... snow's right (IMO) in that we take a lot of things forgranted and we really only need the basics to survive...

[/ QUOTE ]

But that argument then must be: we should accept only the minimum at every level. I'll build you a new house, and you can give me lunch, and let me sleep under your porch.

For every one person living beyond their means (excessive credit etc) I'll show you one that isn't.

Perhaps furloughs/givebacks should only go to those who are fiscally responsible? or better yet, to the guys who are at their limit.. teach them a lesson!! (sarcasm)

it is the "Fox and the Squirrel fable. ( fox does't save, squirrel does save nuts for winter...)

If I lost my job, or Mrs E lost hers, we would survive, but that means we would have to access the money we have put aside to allow us to retire (again, for me).

Why plan for the future when your argument is: accept less as you don't need so much.

[Snow]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just about the most absurd thing you have ever written Snow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eagle I think you like disagreeing with me just for the hell of it, which is fine with me, it's just you being you I spose and I've come to expect it now.

I'm all for pilots making good salaries, and I don't think pay cuts are ever a good thing. My point is, as Kristie mentioned, people in general adjust their spending to match their salaries, they get a pay raise, they find a way to spend the extra cash.

My friend's dad has a Range Rover, Jaguar V12 convertible, a 40f speedboat, a 40f sailing yacht and lives in a house which they got for a bargain $1 million with a heated pool, 3 guest bedrooms and has a view off a cliff over the bay, I have no idea what his salary is but I'd be guessing he doesn't have a lot of cash left over either.

Would he be as happy driving a car that doesn't cost 6 figures? probably, he just has one because he can, he'd not a car buff or anything, it's just a car for him to drive to work in.

I on the other hand would be happy living in a $40,000 2 bedroom house in a nice neighbourhood and drive around in a 1970's F-150. If I have good friends and enjoy my work, plus have enough to feed, clothe and house myself then that's all that really matters. (ok so a little extra to buy cds wouldn't hurt either ) Sure I'd like to have a boat, or a new Saleen Mustang but my happiness doesn't depend on it.

I think too many people are waiting for their life to get better, 'my life will be good once I get married' or 'my life will be good once the kids move out of home, or when I retire' screw that, enjoy life now, and if your not, what's stopping you? You shouldn't need materal things to be happy in my opinion.

So in summery, if you don't think you have enough money in the bank, spend less!

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to have cable, you don't have to have a kickass stereo system or a new car you don't have to live in a ritzy neabourhood. As long as there's a roof over your head and food on the table that's all you really need.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we then donate everything else as Excess cash?


[ QUOTE ]
Sure I'd like to have a boat, or a new Saleen Mustang but my happiness doesn't depend on it.

I think too many people are waiting for their life to get better, 'my life will be good once I get married' or 'my life will be good once the kids move out of home, or when I retire' screw that, enjoy life now, and if your not, what's stopping you? You shouldn't need materal things to be happy in my opinion.

So in summery, if you don't think you have enough money in the bank, spend less!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not disagree with either of these statements, and it isn’t even a matter of happiness or not (needing a new boat etc.)

As a capitalist, I work under the idea that I want people to pay me for what I do. If they are not willing to pay me what **I** think it is worth, (ideally, more than I do) then I'm not doing the gig. And once I have achieved that point, for them to come back and say. so sad too bad, Give me back 40% or be unemployed is BS.

Living under the idea (what I have a problem with in this entire thread) is if we only live on the cash we make, then none of us world wide would have a home. or a car or anything, plus the economy would screech to a halt as commerce would die off. like it or not credit/lending is a huge part of the infrastructure. Do you think Delta, whips out the checkbook and cuts a billion dollar check to buy a bunch of new airplanes?

No way...

So why is it any better or worse when Pilot Bob all of a sudden realizes he may not be able to afford their vacation home? Just because you (generic you) don't have one? is it envy or jealousy? Should he sit at home with his 2.3 kids and wife with all the lights turned off, and only let the kids out to go to school? Should he not have a TV, as it cost too much to turn it on? How should he spend his money? What is the acceptable ratio of necessity to luxury to convenience?

[I_Money]

In the US anyone can obtain these luxury items, it all depends how hard you want to work and what you are willing to sacrifice to get there.

[n77j]

Oh well....until airline pilots are paid enough (which is never), this thread will go on on for good!

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]

I on the other hand would be happy living in a $40,000 2 bedroom house in a nice neighbourhood

[/ QUOTE ]

Just the lot alone in a crack neighborhood is going to cost you $40,000! Heck, Arizona has condominiums in not so nice neighborhoods that are in the mid-$100's.

Ok, this next paragraph is targeted very generically and isn't in response to anyone in particular, so don't flame me.

America deals with an enormous amount of class envy. I bet for every "$150,000 cut to $90,000" salaried captain, there are at least 10 people with attitudes like:

Ha! I only make $27,000, no one needs that much money

or

Those boneheads don't work hard enough, I work my hands 'till they bleed for 60 hours per week at the copper mine for minimum wage! That ain't fair he got two cars!

or

Why does he need a four bedroom house? Me and my nine kids do just fine in a doublewide.

How do I know this? I dealt with it a lot with former friends and some family.

And you will too!

The classic example of class envy is when you leave any job to move "up".

When I got hired at Skyway, there was a flight instructor that was literally livid that I got a regional job and he didn't. And was extremely vocal about it to the point that he wanted to "solve it" in the parking lot. I'm still trying to figure that one out...

When I got hired at Delta, there were a lot of people that were mad that I got hired by a major. I had 3,000 hours, whereas they applied to the same airline and had 3,001 hours or had been a captain a month longer. You should have heard the moans, astonishment and people angrily whispering "...must be affirmative action" or "...yeah, we know how YOU got hired..." when I walked out of the chief pilots office after handing in my resignation letter. Heck, even my own assistant chief pilot at Skyway warned me: "You know, if you fail ground school at Delta, you can't come back to Skyway". But then two years later, he emailed me his resume for a letter of reccomendation.

Electrons are a horrible thing to waste.

I hate to say it, but America is becoming a nation of paradox. Everyone wants everyone else to succeed -- but just as long as they out-earn, out-perform, get more days off or have a prettier wife than them.

Think about it. How many of you reading this were happy when your best friend got his private pilots license, but a little jealous when he got his multi before you did.

Don't be shy...Raise your hand.

Remember the dot.com boom? Everyone was angry because 21 year old kids would graduate, get a fi####ll of stock options of xyz.com, cash out for $8,000,000 and retire. But those same people were the ones gloating during the bursting of the dot.com bubble and preached, after the fact, how 'irrational' the era was -- even though they themselves had cashed out their children's college fund to dump into webvan.com and drkoop.com in hopes of capturing some of that "easy money".

Sadly, I see a lot of that in this very thread.

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
I on the other hand would be happy living in a $40,000 2 bedroom house in a nice neighbourhood

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to know where I can find a house for 40 grand in a nice neighborhood. I am living in a nice area (an apartment) in Grand Forks ND, and the 3 bedroom houses are going for over 200 thousand.

I know you could find houses for that cheap, but they would need work and who knows what kind of area it would be in.