Unions are stupid... Mesaba screwed

[seagull]

Originally Posted by killbilly

I had similar thoughts tonight during a discussion with my parents - one of whom is planning to vote straight dem ticket. I tried to reason with her that this was fallacious and a waste of her vote. But she's so freaked out these days that it's an "anybody but the republicans" mode. I pointed out that Solomon himself may not be able to extricate us from the present messes domestic and abroad, and that the dems should be very careful what they wish for...

back on topic...is there any historically agreed-upon point in the timeline of the last 30 years or so where the oft-referred-to downward spiral/union problems began? And as a follow-up question, were/are there any critical moments where, hindsight being 20/20, the industry should have zigged instead of zagged thus improving the overall scope today? (I know these are highly subjective and multifaceted questions that will not be answered fully here, but answers will hopefully point me in the right direction)

Very curious about this. I'm quite interested in learning how the airlines got where they are today. Recommended reading would be a great bonus. And mods, if these questions need a thread of their own, be my guest....

All quite true, and so the pendulum continues politically and, economically, it will also pendulum back with the natural flow of economic law, but that won't do much good for those in the middle of the mess now, anymore than other laws helped blacksmiths back when. Actually, laws to "stop" the process will just make the agony slower and the recovery take longer, but that won't stop the "quick fix" politicians!

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by seagull

Actually, if you look at the numbers, the economy didn't start picking up until the Republicans got control of Congress.

You're going to have to take a look at the numbers again.

The real GDP increased about 2.7 percent in 1992-1993 and 4.02 percent in 1993-1994. In 1994-1995, it went up 2.5 percent and in 1995-1996 it went up by 3.70 percent.

Sorry, man. The numbers don't bear you out.

Bottom line is that the biggest myth out there is that republicans are good for the economy. Hell, man, the Great Depression took place on a republican's watch but they're supposed to be good for the economy?

I also like your "mindless following of the left's mantra" line. First, define "left." Second, what mantra is it that I'm allegedly mindlessly following?

As for the straightening out due to basic economic principles, why would it? If companies can save a few bucks by offshoring jobs or lowering wages to Wal-Mart levels, many of them will do it.

Hell, man. We're talking about airline wages and you can't tell me government getting out of the business of regulating airline operations didn't cause a lot of the pain we're seeing now unless you feel like lying to me. I know you don't.

[Timbuff10]

Geez guys, I made an outlandish 2 AM statement last night and you guys turned this thread into a huge political debate.

Time for the lav?

[GaTechKid]

Bottom line is that the biggest myth out there is that republicans are good for the economy.

Bottom line is neither democrats nor republicans have any significant influence on the economy.

[falconvalley]

Comon, everybody knows the economy depends on how Kevin Bacon does on the stockmarket...haven't ya'll seen Quicksilver?

[surreal1221]

Speaking of Kevin Bacon. . . he is filming a movie at my wife's school, as well as a number of other locations in the CAE metro area.

Anyone want to stalk him?

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Speaking of Kevin Bacon. . . he is filming a movie at my wife's school, as well as a number of other locations in the CAE metro area.

Anyone want to stalk him?

I would if he looked like he did when he was younger. That being said he has aged well!

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Geez guys, I made an outlandish 2 AM statement last night and you guys turned this thread into a huge political debate.

Time for the lav?

It's geting close to the election. Of course that's going to happen. That being said, let's take a right turn and

GET BACK ON TRACK

Mesaba was in the press yesterday and stated that they aer going to impose cuts at 1201 amEST Thursday . Stay tuned.....

[seagull]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You're going to have to take a look at the numbers again.

The real GDP increased about 2.7 percent in 1992-1993 and 4.02 percent in 1993-1994. In 1994-1995, it went up 2.5 percent and in 1995-1996 it went up by 3.70 percent.

Sorry, man. The numbers don't bear you out.

Bottom line is that the biggest myth out there is that republicans are good for the economy. Hell, man, the Great Depression took place on a republican's watch but they're supposed to be good for the economy?

I also like your "mindless following of the left's mantra" line. First, define "left." Second, what mantra is it that I'm allegedly mindlessly following?

As for the straightening out due to basic economic principles, why would it? If companies can save a few bucks by offshoring jobs or lowering wages to Wal-Mart levels, many of them will do it.

Hell, man. We're talking about airline wages and you can't tell me government getting out of the business of regulating airline operations didn't cause a lot of the pain we're seeing now unless you feel like lying to me. I know you don't.

OK, just ticked up slightly until the elections of 94, recall what happened during that election? Recall what happened on the next one? You've made my point, thank you.

I agree that the Republican's aren't necessarily good for the economy. It is equally true that the Democrats aren't either. You can make the argument either way, which just proves both are inaccurate.

As for it straightening out economically over time, it will. You need to do some study on economic theory. It has to because the market will lead to it. If pilot working conditions are very bad over a long enough period, they WILL end up creating a pilot shortage with the inevitable results of a push on wages. The more laws are created to try to "help" the situation, the more it will just make the process move slower, which is what is happening now.

Of COURSE the gov't getting out of regulating the airlines caused pain, but, overall, it did benefit most consumers. Imagine if we protected the auto industry from foreign competition, how efficient would our cars be now, how well would they be, maintenance wise? Same can be applied to other industries as well. Less regulation forces more efficiency. Yes, it comes at a price, like my blacksmith example, people are displaced, but in the LONG term it is better for the economy.

While the airlines are a different animal now, ticket prices are a LOT cheaper and many more people fly. There are, actually, MORE pilot jobs now than there were. Is that a good or bad thing? Depends on many subjective issues!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by JEP

It's geting close to the election. Of course that's going to happen. That being said, let's take a right turn and

GET BACK ON TRACK

Mesaba was in the press yesterday and stated that they aer going to impose cuts at 1201 amEST Thursday . Stay tuned.....

Wonder what the odds are of massive resignations at 12:02am.......

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Wonder what the odds are of massive resignations at 12:02am.......

I would hope they would hang around at least a little while to see if the district court will restore their right to strike. The bankruptcy judge has already been reversed once in the Mesaba case.

[jawright]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Let your company be good to you on their own? Does anyone really believe that? Man...that's funny....

You mean like Enron was?

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by jawright

You mean like Enron was?

Have any of you guys actually ever worked somewhere outside of the airline business? There are a lot of companies that are really good to their employees. Yes, there are those that are crap to their employees also, but there are some altruistic companies out there.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Have any of you guys actually ever worked somewhere outside of the airline business? There are a lot of companies that are really good to their employees. Yes, there are those that are crap to their employees also, but there are some altruistic companies out there.

Yep. Let's do the rundown....

Chili's, not too bad. Free food, crappy pay check. Worked like a slave.
Disney, really crappy paycheck, worked even harder to make rent, but I got to ride cool rides for free.
Universal, see Disney, but slightly higher on the $$$
Sea World, actually treated okay, worked about the same, more $$$ and free beer every month.
Southwest, oops, that's the airline industry.....

Not a damn one of those not in the airline industry did I feel like (or was treated better than) a cog in the machine. Incidentally, the Disney job was even union. But, since the company had the union in their back pocket, it didn't really matter. I could have been easily replaced at most of them (until I reached the supervisor level at the theme parks), so there was really no need for the company to make an attempt at retaining my services. I was an employee number attatched to a pay stub to them. I watched ticket prices skyrocket while my wages stayed the same and managers got "productivity bonuses."

The question is, where have you worked Chris outside of aviation that you weren't treated like an easily replaceable, cog in the machine?

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by jawright

You mean like Enron was?

'xactly!

I wouldn't mind finding one of those "altruistic companies " but i don't work in one and I know of no engineering company that operates without the bottom line being #1 in priority and employees being at the bottom of the list.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

The question is, where have you worked Chris outside of aviation that you weren't treated like an easily replaceable, cog in the machine?

There are plenty of places where both I and the company have acknowledged that I'm easily replacable (and that was just because I was a teenager with no job skills / experience compared to everyone else. However, some companies would still respect you as an individual and give you credit when you do something good. There are two factors in a job, the hygiene factors and the reward factors. Hygiene factors are ones that make you miserable if they're not met (e.g. pay not being enough to feed you), and reward factors are things that make you happy with your job (e.g. recognition for your hard work). Some companies only attempt to meet the hygiene factors, other strive for both sides.

[farmerbrown]

I actually work for a company that is like that. Everyone gets the same bonus (percentage wise) based on how well the company meets its goals. Same for the CEO right down to janitor. Also, not public or closely held which makes an enormous difference. I would say my situation is rare though. Public companies can't afford to be too good to employees or the shareholders get worked up about earnings. Just for the record I have worked at companies prior to this one where you are just the cog. One we had a supervisor tried hard to make everyone love there job and be rah rah about the company. When push came to shove, they cut our whole department, except the supervisor.

[Gonzo]

When I decided to pursue flying I quit my full-time job and took a part-time job at T-Mobile. I can honestly say it was the best company I have worked at and probably ever will work at. The company was always about rewarding the employees. The benefits were incredible for somebody who only worked 25 hours a week(I get the same bonuses and benefits as full-time employees).
So I disagree with Steve there are companies out there that do care about their employees there might not be a lot but there are a few.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

There are plenty of places where both I and the company have acknowledged that I'm easily replacable (and that was just because I was a teenager with no job skills / experience compared to everyone else. However, some companies would still respect you as an individual and give you credit when you do something good. There are two factors in a job, the hygiene factors and the reward factors. Hygiene factors are ones that make you miserable if they're not met (e.g. pay not being enough to feed you), and reward factors are things that make you happy with your job (e.g. recognition for your hard work). Some companies only attempt to meet the hygiene factors, other strive for both sides.

I'm familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I took a class or two in college.

My question is, were they small businesses that reward those that do well b/c they're more like a family, or are they larger corporations like most airlines, Enron, Disney, etc that have hardly any connection with the peons and the CEOs? The only small business I've ever had the opportunity to work for was my dad's in HS, so I was a bit biased there. The only other companies I've worked with were large corporations who were more concerned with money and how many people we could get through in an hour than the people working there. The shining exception, however, was Southwest. But, you said outside the airline industry......

[Doug Taylor]

The "easily replaceable" thing is still in full effect even at the majors.

If you think an airline gives a crap about your well being other than making sure a warm body is in a seat and operations is making their target metrics, you may be in for a rude awakening!

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I'm familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I took a class or two in college.

My question is, were they small businesses that reward those that do well b/c they're more like a family, or are they larger corporations like most airlines, Enron, Disney, etc that have hardly any connection with the peons and the CEOs? The only small business I've ever had the opportunity to work for was my dad's in HS, so I was a bit biased there. The only other companies I've worked with were large corporations who were more concerned with money and how many people we could get through in an hour than the people working there. The shining exception, however, was Southwest. But, you said outside the airline industry......

I'm specifically thinking about Sears when I worked there. But again, my work experience has been limited to those typical teenager jobs. However, I know some people who love where they work and some who hate it. I guess it's partially outlook on things.

[Timbuff10]

Hmm so a pilot's biggest fear is furlough, and being laid off. This makes the company constantly use this as a weapon to get concessions and scare the pilots into giving it up. Results in a work group that doesn't trust their company right?

So I know other people in other careers that have good jobs, trust their company and make good money. If their company lets them go then they don't have to go to the bottom of some other company's seniority list. Instead, they go out and get another job that pays the same or maybe more right from the get go.

Would a national seniority list prevent this? I would think it would prevent the whipsawing that goes on? Yes, no?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by seagull

The more laws are created to try to "help" the situation, the more it will just make the process move slower, which is what is happening now.

I'm curious. Just what laws have been created that regulate the airline industry more in the past 20 years?

I've worked for more companies than I care to recall since I got out of college in 1990. Some treated their employees better than others. I'd say that smart companies realize that treating your employees well is good for the bottom line. It reduces turnover, and saves the company money since it costs a lot of cash to recruit and train new employees.

But there are a lot of companies out there who do not think long term like that and try to squeeze every last drop of blood out of their employees.