Unions are stupid... Mesaba screwed

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by pilot602

You have a cash cushion?

Yes. We can last indefinitely without the wife's salary, 1 year without my salary, and 3-4 months without either salary. But I'm probably a bad example because, based on your Washington Post article, we're not middle class.

Originally Posted by pilot602

Not, arguing irresponsible personal finances, there's way too much of that going on, but there are also a lot predatory lending practicies going on under the guise of "honest" financial institutions. And, when/if a job is lost a lot of people are in BIG trouble. Hence, declining middle class.

I'm not sayin' that the lenders are angels (in fact, some of them are pretty bad). I'm just not going to feel sorry for someone who made no plans for a bump in the road (and I'm going to put anyone who lives in a 5,000 sq. ft. home down as having missed at least one very large opportunity to protect themselves from lifes unexpected surprises).


Anyway, this is getting way off point --- UNIONS ARE ALL THAT STANDS BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR PROFITEERING CORPORATE OVERLORDS!!!!


That is all.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by skydog

What I find amusing is that not too long ago pilot unions were using their muscle (slow-downs, strikes, etc) to get management to give them what they wanted. And the pilots were just fine with that. Now that the tables are turned, and management is using their muscle (i.e. bankruptcy) to get what they want, the pilots are all indignant about it.

If you're going to play hard-ball, don't be surprised when the other side plays by the same rules.

But they aren't playing by the same rules. All of the labor side "strong arming" was done within the law of the RLA, which has set steps laid out. Bankruptcy is NOT one of those steps. Management is using bankruptcy to side step the law and throw it into the laps of the courts. Let's look at MAIR holdings, the company that owns Mesaba. Now, Mesaba contributes most of the money MAIR makes, yet MAIR is still solvent while Mesaba is in bankruptcy. Now, I know they have Big Sky, but I don't see how Big Sky can offset the money Mesaba is "losing" for MAIR. So, in order to break the union contracts, management turns to the court system. They've got a long, drawn out fight on their hands under the RLA (ie the LEGAL way), but they need to cut costs quickly. So, they side step the law. So, the other side is NOT playing by the same rules. If both sides were allowed self help as they should be under the RLA, it would be the same rules. As it is, the courts have taken ALL of the power out of the unions hands, not just some of it.

There's a reason no new talks are scheduled with Mesaba management and pilots: management doesn't have anything to gain from talks since they've already got what they want in their back pockets. If there wasn't a time frame set for those imposed terms, they would have been imposed the second the ruling came down and there's nothing labor could have done about it.

[seagull]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Can't argue the facts so you argue the source.

Still haven't shown me any specifics.

Your "source" is putting out flawed data, so I do argue with it.

Specifics? I listed the prime rate above, is that not specific enough for you? President and BOTH houses were democrats at that time.

Airline Deregulation Act, sponsored by Sen. Kennedy, signed into law by President Carter. Do I need to explain what party they are members of?

NAFTA. Signed into law by Clinton.

There are more, but this is an airline forum and so I will start with the ones that impact our biz.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by seagull

Your "source" is putting out flawed data, so I do argue with it.

Prove it.

NAFTA. Signed into law by Clinton.

but you said this earlier:

and I am against ANY politician that believes protectionism works or is actually good for the average American.

Which is it? Protectionism is bad or NAFTA (definately NOT protectionism) is bad?

There are more, but this is an airline forum and so I will start with the ones that impact our biz.

Didn't stop ya from listing NAFTA and the obligatory Clinton reference ...

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

But they aren't playing by the same rules. All of the labor side "strong arming" was done within the law of the RLA, which has set steps laid out. Bankruptcy is NOT one of those steps. Management is using bankruptcy to side step the law and throw it into the laps of the courts. Let's look at MAIR holdings, the company that owns Mesaba. Now, Mesaba contributes most of the money MAIR makes, yet MAIR is still solvent while Mesaba is in bankruptcy. Now, I know they have Big Sky, but I don't see how Big Sky can offset the money Mesaba is "losing" for MAIR. So, in order to break the union contracts, management turns to the court system. They've got a long, drawn out fight on their hands under the RLA (ie the LEGAL way), but they need to cut costs quickly. So, they side step the law. So, the other side is NOT playing by the same rules. If both sides were allowed self help as they should be under the RLA, it would be the same rules. As it is, the courts have taken ALL of the power out of the unions hands, not just some of it.

There's a reason no new talks are scheduled with Mesaba management and pilots: management doesn't have anything to gain from talks since they've already got what they want in their back pockets. If there wasn't a time frame set for those imposed terms, they would have been imposed the second the ruling came down and there's nothing labor could have done about it.

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Here's the deal: no union, these guys and gals would already be working for peanuts LONG ago while management got fat off the profits. Their options would be take it or quit, sorta like what they have now.

I don't blame either Reps or Dems for this, I blame the judges responsible for interpreting a law that has been on the books since the 1930s. According to the RLA, self-help (imposing the contract or striking) is available to BOTH sides after a cooling off period. Well, bankruptcy seems to give an edge to teh company and effectively skips several steps in the CBA process. The problem is, there's nothing in the bankruptcy code that protects the workers. You've got the Norris-LaGuardia act, but it's outdated and full of holes as well.

Jtrain, this wasn't the case that set the precedent. You'll have to look at NWA and the FAs for that one. Their strike was blocked a little over a month ago. I'm pretty sure Kishel probably viewed that one as precedent. So, I'd say the precedent is already set, and you can't blame the regional guys for it this time.

If I were a Mesaba pilot, I'd be gone as soon as they impose terms. I couldn't subject my family to the kind of wage cuts that are potentially going to be imposed. 17.5%? I can make more as a CFI, set my own schedule and sleep in my own bed every night. I'm officially flying an airliner for as little as I'm willing right now. Mesaba would be significantly lower than what I'm making at Pinnacle. Doesn't matter that it's a turboprop, it's still an airliner carrying passengers, punching through weather and trying to make it from point A to point B on time.

The thing I'm afraid of is Pinnacle following suit, cooking the books (we're making money right now, so bankruptcy is sorta out unless they do something weird in accounting), filing Ch 11, forcing terms or getting another cert going to whipsaw us Go Jets-style. If that happened, I think I'd rather be flying at Mesa.....

Kellwolf, your posts in this thread are some of the MOST well thought out, well explained, and dead-spot-on-correct posts I have ever read on an aviation forum!

Even though you've only been at PNCL since March, your knowledge of unions and airline management's tricks is considerable! You're a good role model that I hope others look up to.

If we ever meet, lunch is on me.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by seagull

Airline Deregulation Act, sponsored by Sen. Kennedy, signed into law by President Carter. Do I need to explain what party they are members of?

I'd say that bill bettered the profession,wouldn't you?

[higney85]

Ok, kinda back onto-off topic here with mesaba... Fact of the matter here is that it doesn't look like they will be around too much longer- What happens if they liquidate? Who gets the flying? I know they have some EAS routes- do those get rebid and in the mean time do not get served?

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by higney85

Ok, kinda back onto-off topic here with mesaba... Fact of the matter here is that it doesn't look like they will be around too much longer- What happens if they liquidate? Who gets the flying? I know they have some EAS routes- do those get rebid and in the mean time do not get served?

The scarier thought is what if after a good portion of the pilot group leaves for greener pastures, they hire a bunch of extremely low time pilots that are willing to work anywhere for anything. Then, they survive with a weaker pilot group and now the standard has been set lower. That sets a precedent in the industry and the downard spiral continues. Of course, the other possibility is that the financial hemmoraging continues and they go belly up. Not a good scenario either way. I am really bummed about this ruling and hope the issue of companies using bankruptcy law recklessly becomes a political issue. Somone call Lou Dobbs... this is an attack on the American middle class! BTW, there is informational picketing on Thursday in MSP, DTW, and MEM to support Mesaba pilots.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

The scarier thought is what if after a good portion of the pilot group leaves for greener pastures, they hire a bunch of extremely low time pilots that are willing to work anywhere for anything. Then, they survive with a weaker pilot group and now the standard has been set lower. That sets a precedent in the industry and the downard spiral continues. Of course, the other possibility is that the financial hemmoraging continues and they go belly up. Not a good scenario either way. I am really bummed about this ruling and hope the issue of companies using bankruptcy law recklessly becomes a political issue. Somone call Lou Dobbs... this is an attack on the American middle class! BTW, there is informational picketing on Thursday in MSP, DTW, and MEM to support Mesaba pilots.

If people leave in groves the company won't have time to hire & retrain pilots before they go belly up! Think 2-3 days would do it in for them.

Then thats all she wrote for Mesaba!

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

If people leave in groves the company won't have time to hire & retrain pilots before they go belly up! Think 2-3 days would do it in for them.

Then thats all she wrote for Mesaba!

Assuming they leave before they have jobs lined up. I'm sure they have resumes out, but even if they have interview dates, getting a class can be a slow process. Leaving in droves would be effective. If there was enough hiring out there by ALPA represented airlines, they could and probably would be given preferential hiring. Which leads back to the original topic/thread subject... thank goodness the union is around!

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Spanjers is probably rubbing off a wet one tonight for his victory in court...

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

Spanjers is probably rubbing off a wet one tonight for his victory in court...

How's that MAPD application process going btw...

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by pilot602

And BTW it was actually the Republican Congress/President that made personal bankruptcy harder and corporate bankruptcy easier. Not to mention the complete and total decay of the middle class in the last six years ...

Plus, it would be difficult to blame the democrats for any legislation that has come out of the Congress for the past six years seeing how Dennis Hastert is on record as saying that if it can't pass with only republican votes, he's not interested in the legislation.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

"John and Sally had to sell their home because they couldn't afford payments on their 5,000+ sq. ft./5+ acre house after John lost his job making rubber dog vomit." Who the $@#% needs a 5,000 sq. ft. house?!?

I don't feel too sorry for people who were living on borrowed time instead of planning properly and living within their means.

If you need the housing market to continue to go up by 10-15 percent a year in order to continue making ends meet, you're in over your head and you've got only yourself to blame!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

Assuming they leave before they have jobs lined up. I'm sure they have resumes out, but even if they have interview dates, getting a class can be a slow process.

Heard a couple of weeks ago that ALPA was working on arranging job fairs and job help for these guys. They've worked out preferential hiring agreements with ALPA carriers for airlines that have gone under in the past, don't see why they can't do that again. I'm HOPING that Mesaba guys would leave in droves instead of sticking around for the sub-standard wages and benefits, but everyone has to make that decision for themselves....

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

How's that MAPD application process going btw...

Clearly you haven't been keeping up with the posts in the FSA forums.

In a nutshell, I decided against PACE(MAPD) for a multitude of reasons.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by seagull

Maybe you should take a look at the late 70s, when the Democratic party held both houses of Congress and the President. The Prime Rate interest rates got near 20%, and you think they're high now?

Or we could just look back to the early 1990s when Bill Clinton was in office and the democrats controlled both chambers of Congress. They only managed to lay the groundwork for the longest economic expansion in the history of the United States AND trillions of dollars in surpluses which would have eliminated all the national debt on the books.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

Clearly you haven't been keeping up with the posts in the FSA forums.

In a nutshell, I decided against PACE(MAPD) for a multitude of reasons.

Check the smileys...I was just bein an ass!

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Sorry, I did miss the smiley faces. Alright, it's all good

[lostplanetairman]

I can envision this going to the US Supreme Court--US Bankruptcy laws v. RLA.

[GaTechKid]

The economy should quit placing the blame on others for its own failures and successes. But it never listens to me so....

[seagull]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Prove it.

Which is it? Protectionism is bad or NAFTA (definately NOT protectionism) is bad?

Didn't stop ya from listing NAFTA and the obligatory Clinton reference ...

I already did prove it, you're just too locked into your opinion to pay attention to any facts. As for NAFTA, I never stated I was against it, but I will say that it is often trumpeted as bad for labor, as is the deregulation act and most other major legislation that is considered anti labor.

The proof is in the books or via google. You are either very young, or just like to stir the pot. Either way, I don't debate with bricks, got better things to do with my time. Your opinion will change when you mature most likely.

[seagull]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

The scarier thought is what if after a good portion of the pilot group leaves for greener pastures, they hire a bunch of extremely low time pilots that are willing to work anywhere for anything. Then, they survive with a weaker pilot group and now the standard has been set lower. That sets a precedent in the industry and the downard spiral continues. Of course, the other possibility is that the financial hemmoraging continues and they go belly up. Not a good scenario either way. I am really bummed about this ruling and hope the issue of companies using bankruptcy law recklessly becomes a political issue. Somone call Lou Dobbs... this is an attack on the American middle class! BTW, there is informational picketing on Thursday in MSP, DTW, and MEM to support Mesaba pilots.

A lot of truth in what you write. In the long term, basic economic principles will straighten this out, but that doesn't do much good to those who are in the middle of it all, sadly.

[seagull]

Originally Posted by tonyw

Or we could just look back to the early 1990s when Bill Clinton was in office and the democrats controlled both chambers of Congress. They only managed to lay the groundwork for the longest economic expansion in the history of the United States AND trillions of dollars in surpluses which would have eliminated all the national debt on the books.

Actually, if you look at the numbers, the economy didn't start picking up until the Republicans got control of Congress. Oh, but in this case the democrats had "laid the groundwork", eh? But that's not what happened when GW got elected?

Contrary to you, I don't claim to be impressed with the Republicans particularly at all. In fact, if everyone here was arguing about how great they were, then I'd take the opposite side, because that wouldn't be accurate either. My objection is to the mindless following of the left's mantra. I grew up with it, and I dare say that I probably had one HE&& of a harder life growing up than just about any of the others on this forum. The difference is that I do NOT buy into the "victim" mentality, nor do I view all of these things that are happening as necessarily bad.

As I stated above, in the longer term, these things WILL all get straightened out through the basic laws of economics (if the gov't will let it happen). I view BOTH parties as always taking the short term approach, nobody is willing to do what it takes to make things better LONG term, and both use scare tactics to gain votes from a populace that is borderline not able to think well enough to vote at all. It is truly a sad state of affairs, and it calls into question whether democracy is even viable over the long term.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by seagull

and both use scare tactics to gain votes from a populace that is borderline not able to think well enough to vote at all. It is truly a sad state of affairs, and it calls into question whether democracy is even viable over the long term.

I had similar thoughts tonight during a discussion with my parents - one of whom is planning to vote straight dem ticket. I tried to reason with her that this was fallacious and a waste of her vote. But she's so freaked out these days that it's an "anybody but the republicans" mode. I pointed out that Solomon himself may not be able to extricate us from the present messes domestic and abroad, and that the dems should be very careful what they wish for...

back on topic...is there any historically agreed-upon point in the timeline of the last 30 years or so where the oft-referred-to downward spiral/union problems began? And as a follow-up question, were/are there any critical moments where, hindsight being 20/20, the industry should have zigged instead of zagged thus improving the overall scope today? (I know these are highly subjective and multifaceted questions that will not be answered fully here, but answers will hopefully point me in the right direction)

Very curious about this. I'm quite interested in learning how the airlines got where they are today. Recommended reading would be a great bonus. And mods, if these questions need a thread of their own, be my guest....