Unions are stupid... Mesaba screwed

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I hate to sound like a jackass

Sure ya do bro...

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Pengy-

I'm sorry bro. Love ya man, but re-read what you just wrote please.

Are you suggesting that when a company plays the BK card, that all labor simply roll over, give into ridiculous demands so the company can exit bankruptcy? The process is nowhere that simple and there's a lot more in play than "give us some cash and we'll all survive".

I've got first hand experience as a pilot working for a bankrupt carrier and the last thing you want to do is roll over without a whimper.

Trust me. I'll tell you a lot more at NJC.

Doug

Oh no! That was never my line of thinking.

What I was implying, is that when a company enters bankruptcy courts, the Unions no longer have any leverage on the company, so, the only way the Unions to retain their power, is to get out of the bankruptcy courts as quickly as possible.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Doug

Oh no! That was never my line of thinking.

What I was implying, is that when a company enters bankruptcy courts, the Unions no longer have any leverage on the company, so, the only way the Unions to retain their power, is to get out of the bankruptcy courts as quickly as possible.

Not quite. Unions HAD power during chapter 11 proceedings until this ruling. There used to be this idea that a company had two sides; managment and the employee's. Now we've been told that there's only one driving force, managment telling the employee's what's good for them without any say in it.

Sounds like facism to me.

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Have to love that Ch. 11 get out of everything free jail card these airlines are getting.

When Vanguard declared Chapter 11, years ago, my company had to write off about $750k......

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Doug

Oh no! That was never my line of thinking.

What I was implying, is that when a company enters bankruptcy courts, the Unions no longer have any leverage on the company, so, the only way the Unions to retain their power, is to get out of the bankruptcy courts as quickly as possible.

I think the only leverage unions hold post bk is striking.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Doug

Oh no! That was never my line of thinking.

What I was implying, is that when a company enters bankruptcy courts, the Unions no longer have any leverage on the company, so, the only way the Unions to retain their power, is to get out of the bankruptcy courts as quickly as possible.

Inaccurate statement.

Otherwise there'd be no need for an 1113(c) filing.

Personal experience. Been there, almost did that, bought the freeking t-shirt.

The only leverage a union ever has is withholding service (aka "strike") when a contract has expired and the NLRB releases the parties for "self help" or the contract is no longer in place (if it was abrogated by an 1113(c) filing in the US Bankruptcy Court).

The judge is attempting to make precedent here, but it actually doesn't hold legal water and anyone who thinks the ramifications of the judge making up his own rules in this situation isn't going to send a shockwave industry wide needs a sodium pentathol tab.

If Mesaba starts operating CRJ's for $X-Y per hour, in the next round of negotiations at even heathly carriers, that's going to be the company opener. I'll bet you a dinner at Ruth's Chris on that one. And crap rolls downhill and bounces uphill in the airline industry. I learned that one first hand too.

The judge cannot stop a strike, well, without a contract, he doesn't retain the authoritiy to block a strike. Once the contract goes away, so do the joint protections of the NLRB. Can't have it both ways.

The fat lady hasn't gotten close to singing yet.

[frog_flyer]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Burn it down!!!

with bigger font, all caps and bold.

[adreamer]

I am wondering now how many low time CFIs would these job?

Agree with Jtrain, wonder what this would affect the whole profession as in whole.

[frog_flyer]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I was gonna say, I've had a few beers tonight but I didn't think I was THAT drunk to as be posting completely frog_flyeresque posts!

don't hate me cause you ain't me....

On that note, I challenge anyone to find a drunk post by me in the last month.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

don't hate me cause you ain't me....

On that note, I challenge anyone to find a drunk post by me in the last month.

they've all been erased...

[frog_flyer]

"moved, ahem?"



this is a conspiracy against FF

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

"moved, ahem?"



this is a conspiracy against FF

I was the only one that noticed that you were gone for a week!!!

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

"moved, ahem?"



this is a conspiracy against FF

Nope, that was in re: "Ask a (straight/gay/bisex/android/etc)" thread that I took out of circulation over the weekend. I can't find the reference in the lav but it's largely non sequitor.

[frog_flyer]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

I was the only one that noticed that you were gone for a week!!!

yay someone missed me!


... I'm not sure what to think of that, max.....

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

yay someone missed me!


... I'm not sure what to think of that, max.....

Edited to not threathen your heterosexuality: You're welcome!

[N422NM]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

yay someone missed me!

Where's my freakin' rum at !?

[frog_flyer]

I have to wait for kinky to get elected governor. Then he'll pull some strings in washington for me to get there legally.

I expect payment before I go, hoe. Joe, blow, know, toe, show, tow, glow.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061023/mesaba_labor.html?.v=3



AP
Judge Blocks Threatened Strike at Mesaba
Monday October 23, 11:52 pm ET
By Joshua Freed, AP Business Writer
Bankruptcy Judge Blocks Strike by Unions at Mesaba Aviation, a Feeder for Northwest Airlines


MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- A bankruptcy judge on Monday blocked a strike by unions at Mesaba Aviation Inc., clearing the way for the feeder for Northwest Airlines Corp. to impose pay cuts later this week.
Mesaba, which has been reorganizing under bankruptcy protection for a year, had said a strike would probably put it out of business.


On Monday, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Gregory Kishel agreed.


So I think Skywest has it right. Let your company be good to you on their own and keep that percentage you pay to the union.

Taken from the article in the local newspaper here in msp:

"This is a total outrage," said Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "We will appeal this ridiculous decision."

Elizabeth Costello, a Mesaba spokeswoman, said the judge made the "appropriate decision."

She added, "We will continue our efforts to negotiate consensual agreements. We hope to accomplish that goal yet this week before it becomes necessary to impose terms Thursday."

Also, the creditors' committee had threatened to file a motion for liquidation if Mesaba didn't cut its labor costs.

"We have worked diligently to address the unions' concerns and are hopeful that they will step forward now and address the company's needs in a critical cash situation," Costello said.

But she acknowledged Monday that talks with the unions haven't been scheduled.

No talks scheduled.....You really have to wonder what is going to happen. I get the impression here in town after talking with a few Mesaba pilots that I know (former CFI's) that one can only take so much. They are making little, and now they may make even less.

So what if the judge says they cannot strike. He has not said that they can't quit. If the terms are imposed I foresee many of the people striking, quitting, resigning......Call it what you want but they will be done.

I am surprised somewhat that the mothership NWA hasn't said much. Can they easily replace the planes if Mesaba goes under? If so, how fast can that be done? We'll see what happens when I get to the apt on Thursday a.m. At least I am not taking the mothership to NJC...

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by JEP

He has said that they can't quit.

No judge or employer or anyone...can tell you that you can't quit you're job if it is your choosing. We have rules in this country against slavery. Even if airline management is trying to resurect a new form of it.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

No judge or employer or anyone...can tell you that you can't quit you're job if it is your choosing. We have rules in this country against slavery. Even if airline management is trying to resurect a new form of it.

Oops, can't type and think so early in the morning,,,,,, see edit.......

[TheShortOne]

question here (sincere one) - why is it that unions always tell the companies that they are going to strike? It gives the company time to prepare and find "other" workers whereas if just one day no one showed up and *poof* Seems like it'd push the management to the table a lot quicker because they don't have any provisions in place.

I mean, look at the NWA mechanics - they've been striking now for a couple of years and nothing has happened. More people got hired, life went on

[JEP]

Originally Posted by TheShortOne

question here (sincere one) - why is it that unions always tell the companies that they are going to strike? It gives the company time to prepare and find "other" workers whereas if just one day no one showed up and *poof* Seems like it'd push the management to the table a lot quicker because they don't have any provisions in place.

I mean, look at the NWA mechanics - they've been striking now for a couple of years and nothing has happened. More people got hired, life went on

?1 I believe it is part of the labor law. cooling off period, strike notification, etc....

?2 I think the mechanics just went over a year and they are no longer officially on strike. The strike has really been over effectively for longer, but they jsut recently settled with the company allowing them some very minimal benefits; unemployement, severance, possibly a few jobs back, etc... As we know most jobs were lost long ago with teh replacements (some of which were strikers who saw no end so they went back to work....)

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

I think unions do have their place, but it sure as hell isn't working for Mesaba right now.

There's lots of stuff in that contract besides pay and benefits. Let's say you go in for a checkride and you draw the "village idiot" of the training department who hates all first year pilots and he busts you for something trivial. It's nice to have the ALPA rep to help work out a more rational training experience.

I'm not saying they should help a weak person through training...but to smooth over any politics encountered.

[seagull]

Originally Posted by Kristie

isn't this kindof an oxymoron? of course the red and blue states make a difference because it's who you elect into congress that makes/adjusts the rules of our society..so i think they go hand in hand.. vote accordingly!

Most of the truly anti-labor legislation that has been passed in the last 30 years has been signed into law by democrats, and all of it was generally passed with a generous helping of BOTH parties.

No, this is not a red state/blue state issue, sorry, I do not agree. If you think that having a democrat in the White House would have made a difference in all of this, I have a bridge to sell you....

Bankruptcy laws. Who sponsored the current crop of them, who signed them into law, who made them actually tougher for the corporations? It's not as simple as you might think, and if you've ever spent any time in the beltway, you'd know that any legislation is hardly a partisan project, regardless of how some politicians may vote publically or talk....

Politics of fear, both parties are guilty of it, but the constant "you are the victim" mentality is generally a blue state issue. Sorry, I just cannot buy into the "victim" mentality. It does not help, nor is it designed to help, those it is claiming to be concerned about. Nor can I support the legal system "status quo" party. I am also not impressed with the fundamentalist party, and I am against ANY politician that believes protectionism works or is actually good for the average American. That is truly preying on the fear and lack of education that is out there, and I find it disgusting. It seems which ever party is out of power uses that card.

So, that pretty much eliminates most of the current crop from BOTH parties, I guess.

I will also note that when something happens that people don't like, they tend to blame who ever is in office, regardless of whether those individuals had anything to do with what has happened, and I see a LOT of that happening in the airline industry right now.