JBLU Fatigue Hot Water

[kellwolf]

Okay, so here's my thing: jetBlue convinces the FAA this is "safe," and suddenly, those high speeds we're all ranting about, they'll get worse. No where in the FARs does it say things like "only during the day" or "between X am and X pm" on duty limits. As it is, I was DHd from MEM-DTW, flew DTW-HPN, got a few hours of sleep, then flew HPN-DTW, and it was LEGAL! Joe average passenger probably had the idea that I was gonna be spending 10 hours in HPN or enough time to see the bright lights of Manhatten. Little did they know that by the time they hit snooze on their alarm clocks the next morning, I was gonna be landing in DTW.....

As far as scheduling and the whole "you've got a union, get them to fix it," easier said than done, brother. The management take at our airline is "Make them fly it, they can grieve it later. If they don't fly, give them a missed trip and have them talk to the CP." With that attitude, we get hounded by scheduling and threatened, ESPECIALLY year one on reserve and probation. I doubt this is an isolated mind set at my airline, too. As far as how much of it have I read, all of it. How much of it can I use from memory, a lot since I've had to tell scheduling "I'm not legal for that" numerous times, then STILL had to argue my point.

[pilot602]

Pilot602, as for the question of whether or not I have ever done it for a 121 carrier out of training the answer is yes I did it for ten months and have heard everything in the book.

I didn't ask that question.

Bottom line if you hate it or the job is ruining your family life then do something else.

I don't and it's not but that doesn't negate the right for me to fight for a better QOL.

You have to realize that if your group has a union, your work rules are negotiated.

Like I said, no union ... and a drive is currently under way.

If you read my first post you see that I am in favor of you having shorter duty days. I am a big supporters of pilots and f/a's having representation that will force the company to treat them fairly.

Great! But, you're one of the very few that think that way.

We all know people that abuse the system, if you are going to complain about flights being added to your schedule you should first stand up and say something to those responsible.

Again a proper RESERVE level would alleviate a lot of these abuses but the company, instead, uses reserve as a way around not hiring adequate levels of pilots.

Don't tell me that commuting is a necessity, 99.9 % of all working adults must live where there job is

Again, if the company wants us to live in base they need to pay us enough to be ABLE to do it. My last paycheck was $746. YOU try to live anywhere in this country on a bi-monthly check like that, let alone in California (where the majority of our bases are).

but I do have the utmost respect for schedulers, everyday they are abused for trying to get flights moving.

And everyday flight crews (pilots and F/As) are abused by scheduling to try and get those flights moving. Like I said, not every scheduler/planner/etc. is bad nor am I trying to make them out to be but some days you just wonder FTW is going on in HQ.

I apologize if anyone takes offense to this post, but I believe that it is only fair for both sides to be able to present their point of view.

No one said you couldn't post your point of view, have at it and we (really do) welcome it.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Again a proper RESERVE level would alleviate a lot of these abuses but the company, instead, uses reserve as a way around not hiring adequate levels of pilots.

Sweet. It's not just us.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by sm203900

I would really like to see you go do a schedulers job, I will also laugh at your smug butt when you consistenly violate the FAR's. My former 121 carrier had three months just learning contracts, I would love to see you figure that out. You make it sound to as if your company does not have a union. If that is the case you may not understand how complicated these contracts are. I would like to ask other pilots that have unions, how much of the contract have you read, how much of it can you put into use by memory. This is not to point out a fault with pilots, most have better things to do then get intimate with a contract. A scheduler must be able to schedule within the FAR's and then go one step further and schedule within a contract. You screw that up and you have eitheir violated an regulation or part of the contract.

Ok I was going to make nice but ... where's the fun in that?

And if WE make a mistake not only do WE violate FARs, people can DIE. You may violate a FAR ( which if the crew didn't catch YOUR mistake would be violated too) and what fall out of your chair?

Pilot609 i am sorry if you have had a bad experince with scheduling, but chances are you have caused problems for those people as well.

It's Pilot602 and no, I have not. I do my job. I may bitch but I don't use excuses or lame attempts to skirt my responsibilities - no matter how retarded the schedules get.

By the way, you say that I can not do your job, I am going to throw out a giant bull ##### on that one. Oh what's that CFI/I with multi-engine rating. Stick it, I know how to fly a plane, teach a student, and dispatch a plane, you? You make assumptions, and they are dead wrong, so quit being arrogant and givng groups a bad name.

Lol.

[sm203900]

I will apologize, my post was somewhat nasty. As for your paycheck, I can understand that, but I make $100 more per paycheck and I am able to live more then comfortably and that includes paying off student loans.

First year pay for F/O's is ridiculous and was a determining fact on my career choices. Companies look at the cost of training as a part of first year pay which is why there is such a large discrepancy, again that is wrong. I fully support you and your company getting a union and a contract as quickly as possible. A contract unfortunately is not going to fix first year pay, it has become an industry standard for regionals across the board. It has been brought up many times before on this website that until up and coming pilots refuse to work for these wages it will not change.

As for reserve levels, you are correct, they should not be used to staff a shortage in line holders. I cannot speak for other companies but where I came from on any given day we may have thirty of forty reserves with no open time, and by the end of the day we would go through the majority of them. The many issues that come up in the day are the driving reason for their utilization. On the surface it may apppear to the pilots that their is a shortage but that is not always the case.

I would strongly encourage you to go sit an hour or two with scheduling. They are not bad people, they work hard under a considerable amount of stress and pressure. You sit with them and you will have a greater understanding of the issues that you have brought up. I have had pilots sit with me several times and it was always beneficial for bothe sides.

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

As far as scheduling and the whole "you've got a union, get them to fix it," easier said than done, brother. The management take at our airline is "Make them fly it, they can grieve it later. If they don't fly, give them a missed trip and have them talk to the CP." With that attitude, we get hounded by scheduling and threatened, ESPECIALLY year one on reserve and probation. I doubt this is an isolated mind set at my airline, too. As far as how much of it have I read, all of it. How much of it can I use from memory, a lot since I've had to tell scheduling "I'm not legal for that" numerous times, then STILL had to argue my point.

If you are positive that you cannot due a trip per your contract, ask the scheduler to explain the contract, if that does not suffice get your union rep on the phone explain the situation. At this point they should be able to clear up whether or not you can take the trip. At no point should anyone try to intimidate you to fly. I have spoken to union reps many times and in no way would we ever say fly it now file a grievance later. You have a legal binding contract and to violate that is illegal. I understand as a first year F/O this is easier said then done with the probation period. None the less you pay union dues, I can't stress this enough, get your union rep on the phone, they are there for you. Maybe your chief pilot's are different then mine, but as long as you are asking valid questions, working throught the situation in a professional manner they will not shred you. They are their to manage the pilot group, and also to be mentors.

Schedulers do make mistakes, their is daul responsibility to keep everything nice and legal. Some schedulers are better then others, just like pilots. If they make a mistake do not just say I am not legal for that, approach it as I do not believe that I can do this because...you may or may not be correct. I can tell you that I have heard I am not legal for this countless times with no other explanation, figure out why the pilot says that he/she is not legal, and determine that they have misinterpreted something.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by sm203900

If you are positive that you cannot due a trip per your contract, ask the scheduler to explain the contract, if that does not suffice get your union rep on the phone explain the situation. At this point they should be able to clear up whether or not you can take the trip. At no point should anyone try to intimidate you to fly. I have spoken to union reps many times and in no way would we ever say fly it now file a grievance later. You have a legal binding contract and to violate that is illegal.

Where were you a scheduler? It sure wasn't here.

I understand as a first year F/O this is easier said then done with the probation period. None the less you pay union dues,

Actually, we don't until we're off probabtion.....

Schedulers do make mistakes, their is daul responsibility to keep everything nice and legal. Some schedulers are better then others, just like pilots. If they make a mistake do not just say I am not legal for that, approach it as I do not believe that I can do this because...you may or may not be correct. I can tell you that I have heard I am not legal for this countless times with no other explanation, figure out why the pilot says that he/she is not legal, and determine that they have misinterpreted something.

I think the main problem we have here is the schedulers get abused just as badly as the pilots, so there's a nice revolving door. The few that do stick around are good, but for the most part it's new voices on the phone that don't have the experience yet.

[jtrain609]

STEVE! Turn on AIM bro.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Actually, we don't until we're off probabtion.....

The only difference between a probie and one who has gotten off probation is that you can be fired at will. ALPA doesn't make probationary pilots pay dues but the company is still obligated to follow the contract (besides the matter of termination, but even then a union rep is allowed to be brought in) for probationary pilots.

I know it's tough as a probation pilot, you don't want to make waves, but a contract is a contract. At least here, according to management, a pilot will NOT be fired if he/she is adhering to the contract. I asked that question in indoc.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by pilot602

It doesn't. Plus, you're forgetting, 30 seats or under can work 34 in 7, 120/month and 1200/yr.

My first trip off IOE I did an 8:19 LAYOVER to a 4:40 a.m. show with 8 legs (20 minute turns) the next day which was the last day of what ended up being a 5 day trip follwed by one day of reserve for a total of a six day work block.

One level of safety! Go feds!

Had an FAA ACI on the jumpseat today doing a route check (yay), but apparently the JBLU had worked with the local office in NYC, but neither got approval from the FAA HQ so, according to him, there are some inspectors on "administrative leave" pending investigation.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[DE727UPS]

"You have a legal binding contract and to violate that is illegal"

I don't know where you are, but my legally binding contract says if there is a dispute, you are legally bound to fly now and use the greivance process, later.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I know it's tough as a probation pilot, you don't want to make waves, but a contract is a contract. At least here, according to management, a pilot will NOT be fired if he/she is adhering to the contract. I asked that question in indoc.

Oh, I know. Which is why I don't answer my phone on days off and don't meekly go to the airport when scheduling says if I don't have to. I know a couple of guys in my class that do.