JBLU Fatigue Hot Water

[Doug Taylor]

The Wall Street Journal is not the FAA.

Unless it's written in an official document from the CMO, FSDO or the FAA, it's a reporter who may or may not understand what the heck he's talking about.

The Tulare Advance-Register has the same gravitas when it comes to reporting non-financial aviation topics as the Wall Street Journal. AW&ST is one thing because they deal with aviation consistently, but a financial paper written for business people isn't exactly an AC.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

The Wall Street Journal is not the FAA.

Unless it's written in an official document from the CMO, FSDO or the FAA, it's a reporter who may or may not understand what the heck he's talking about.

So you believe the article that this happened?
So you believe that there are professional pilots who thought it was wrong?

But you don't believe the article when it says the pilots were volunteers?
You don't believe the article when professional pilots actually FLEW the tests?

You must watch FOX news a lot, because you're awful picky about what you believe and what you ignore. In fact, and I know you own this board, I've RARELY seen a rational argument out of you, it's all knee jerk reaction.

[B767Driver]

I wonder if this had something to do with why Dave Bushy left Jblu?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by CFIse

You must watch FOX news a lot, because you're awful picky about what you believe and what you ignore. In fact, and I know you own this board, I've RARELY seen a rational argument out of you, it's all knee jerk reaction.

I'm busted!

Yup, I watch Fox News religiously because "They Report and I Decide" and the outrageous liberal bias in the media is sickening.

And yes, rational arguments and knee jerk reaction is pretty much all I'm capable of because of my heavy reliance on Neil Cavuto and Bill O'Reilly to form my opinon as highlighted above.

Can you believe they're trying to outlaw Christmas again? Where are the cultural warriors when we need them?

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Hell, the current rules wouldn"t be too bad if scheduling (and this is a universal truth) wasn't filled with retarded, one celled amobeas that have been oxygen starved and poked with cattle prods one too many times. In other words if scheduling would just build better pairings/lines/trips and not use the current rules to build just whacked retarded trips.

I am pretty sure that the title of this website is jetcareers, i.e. all things aviation. There are people on this forum that believe that the pilot's are the only one's that have it rough. First and foremost I use to work within scheduling and I assure you that most of the people working in the department are very intelligent most with college degrees. IT is very frustrating to constantly take blame from pilots for ruining their lives. Your workgroups have unions, if your union is not willing to go to the table to get you shorter work days then maybe you should start the finger pointing there. Secondly, when your trips get jacked up and things are added and your new schedule is a mess you can thank your fellow pilots for not showing up to work due to sickness and not knowing how to commute, and yes commuting is a priveledge. Bottom line someone needs to fill those seats in the cockpit, and if fellow pilots do not show up someone else must fly. You all knew the stakes when you got into this business, just because you are worn out does not give you the right to blame everyone for your life choices. I do agree that your 16 hour duty days are too much, but as I stated above you have unions, start there to get your work rules changed.
Schedulers are not the problem, they do a job, and if it they did not none of you would have jobs.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by sm203900

I am pretty sure that the title of this website is jetcareers, i.e. all things aviation. There are people on this forum that believe that the pilot's are the only one's that have it rough. First and foremost I use to work within scheduling and I assure you that most of the people working in the department are very intelligent most with college degrees. IT is very frustrating to constantly take blame from pilots for ruining their lives. Your workgroups have unions, if your union is not willing to go to the table to get you shorter work days then maybe you should start the finger pointing there. Secondly, when your trips get jacked up and things are added and your new schedule is a mess you can thank your fellow pilots for not showing up to work due to sickness and not knowing how to commute, and yes commuting is a priveledge. Bottom line someone needs to fill those seats in the cockpit, and if fellow pilots do not show up someone else must fly. You all knew the stakes when you got into this business, just because you are worn out does not give you the right to blame everyone for your life choices. I do agree that your 16 hour duty days are too much, but as I stated above you have unions, start there to get your work rules changed.
Schedulers are not the problem, they do a job, and if it they did not none of you would have jobs.

I hate to pull this card, but are you actually working at a 121 carrier right now and having to deal with scheduling, or are you still just training?

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by sm203900

I am pretty sure that the title of this website is jetcareers, i.e. all things aviation. There are people on this forum that believe that the pilot's are the only one's that have it rough.

No, we're not the only ones who have it rough but of all the people involved at working at an airline we're the only group (flight attendants included) that consistently sleeps in hotel beds. Everyone else, 99% of the time, gets to go home to their own bed.

First and foremost I use to work within scheduling and I assure you that most of the people working in the department are very intelligent most with college degrees.

Smart people do stupid ##### all the time. Besides, a college degree is NOT an indicator of intelligence. It's simply a certificate of attendance which (anymore thanks to certain politcal groups) is roughly equivalent to what a High School Degree was 30 years ago.

IT is very frustrating to constantly take blame from pilots for ruining their lives. Your workgroups have unions, if your union is not willing to go to the table to get you shorter work days then maybe you should start the finger pointing there.

Ahh, well if management would negotiate in good faith. And, who said I had a union?

when your trips get jacked up and things are added and your new schedule is a mess you can thank your fellow pilots for not showing up to work due to sickness

Oh my god! Someone calls in sick? They should be shot! Here's a HINT, that's what reserve is for.

not knowing how to commute, and yes commuting is a priveledge.

Have YOU ever had to commute? Thought so. Commuting is not a priviledge anymore it's a necessity. You try to live anywhere in California for $19,000 per year; hell, anywhere in the country for $19,000 a year. If these airlines truly want us to move to where we're based they should pay us enough to LIVE in those bases. Again, however, that is what reserve is for - to cover the unexpected not to cover for understaffing.

Bottom line someone needs to fill those seats in the cockpit, and if fellow pilots do not show up someone else must fly. You all knew the stakes when you got into this business, just because you are worn out does not give you the right to blame everyone for your life choices.

I don't create the lines you do and if you build retarded pairings it is your fault, not mine. I only get to bid on what's avaialble.

I do agree that your 16 hour duty days are too much, but as I stated above you have unions, start there to get your work rules changed.

What do you think ALPA has been trying to do for the last 75 years? But it's interesting that you blame the unions for not working to make the Federal Laws better and that somehow gives you an excuse to schedule us 16 hours anyway. Interesting logic.

Schedulers are not the problem, they do a job, and if it they did not none of you would have jobs.

HAHAH. Yes we would. If all the schedulers quit a pilot, a janitor, a secratary (insert any job type) could fill in with very, very, very little training. The same can not be said if the roles were reversed. In other, simpler, words. I can do your job but you can not do mine.

[wheelsup]

pilot602,

Chill man. Scheduling doesn't make the pairings. The people you talk to on the phone just try to do their job working with what they have.

You seem to be pissed off at the world here. Maybe take a step back and count to 10?

[jtrain609]

No way man, keep it up John! I love it when you get a fire lit under your ass and tell people how it is! Somebody has got to stand up and say enough is enough and John seems to have just the right background to do just that.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

No way man, keep it up John! I love it when you get a fire lit under your ass and tell people how it is! Somebody has got to stand up and say enough is enough and John seems to have just the right background to do just that.

Every issue he has had I have not. This isn't how it is. He's embellishing to an amazing extent.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

pilot602,

Chill man. Scheduling doesn't make the pairings. The people you talk to on the phone just try to do their job working with what they have.

You seem to be pissed off at the world here. Maybe take a step back and count to 10?

Not pissed ... just don't like the "without me you wouldn't have a job" BS.

The only people that would keep me from having a job would be the pax and they would keep everyone at the airline from having a job if they dried up.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Every issue he has had I have not. This isn't how it is. He's embellishing to an amazing extent.

It's good to know your company is the second coming, but most are not. Hence, somebody has gotta say it.

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Not pissed ... just don't like the "without me you wouldn't have a job" BS.

The only people that would keep me from having a job would be the pax and they would keep everyone from the airline at having a job if they dried up.

I would think without the pilots, the crew schedulers would not have a job. The schedulers, dispatchers, mechanics, accounting, etc, all support the pilot.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Every issue he has had I have not. This isn't how it is. He's embellishing to an amazing extent.

You ever worked at Scenic? Not to mention I just pulled my second 6 day block in one month (and you know it's f'ed up when Mesa pilots are giving you ##### about your schedule ) and I still didn't break guarantee (composite line this month = 80 hour gurantee). Besides, you have a union ...

No, I am not embelishing. Most of this stuff has happened to me personally and other folks I know personaly (first hand). Schedulers/planners/etc. are not all bad and that is not my point or intent. My point is if lines were built with a little more thought as to the effects of the crews, effieciency would probably go up - but instead the laws, as written, are exploited to their fullest extent because it's easier to schedule two crews for an 8 leg day with 20 minute turns (one am one pm) then it is to rework the schedule to build a break or two into the middle of the day.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Schedulers/planners/etc. are not all bad and that is not my point or intent.

I like this quote:

Hell, the current rules wouldn"t be too bad if scheduling (and this is a universal truth) wasn't filled with retarded, one celled amobeas that have been oxygen starved and poked with cattle prods one too many times. In other words if scheduling would just build better pairings/lines/trips and not use the current rules to build just whacked retarded trips

I haven't ever worked for scheduling but they are people just like us trying to make a buck. Why the need to cut them down?

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I like this quote:


I haven't ever worked for scheduling but they are people just like us trying to make a buck. Why the need to cut them down?

Yeah, ok, that was over the top ... but how long have I posted on this board and you didn't know I rolled like that!?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

pilot602,

Chill man. Scheduling doesn't make the pairings. The people you talk to on the phone just try to do their job working with what they have.

Depends on the airline actually.

[Timbuff10]

So how do we go about getting these things changed. Does the FAA just do it after blood is spilled or is there some specific politician out there that pilots need to pay off?

Is this where Unions and ALPA comes in? I see Bike21 was talking about they can go a max of 14 hrs according to Skywest's rules. That is kind of nice that they go a step in the right direction when compared to the rules.

Sorry, just an ignorant and curious CFI here.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

So how do we go about getting these things changed. Does the FAA just do it after blood is spilled or is there some specific politician out there that pilots need to pay off?

Is this where Unions and ALPA comes in? I see Bike21 was talking about they can go a max of 14 hrs according to Skywest's rules. That is kind of nice that they go a step in the right direction when compared to the rules.

Sorry, just an ignorant and curious CFI here.

The contract is the quickest way to do it. We (not skywest) have a max duty period of 14 hours with a 2:1 duty rig. In other words, if we are on duty for 10 hours, we get 5 hours pay minimum. If we are on duty for 14 hours, we get 7 hours pay minimum.

In our contract we also have some things that guarantee us limited duty times based on the time the day starts. If the trip starts prior to 6 AM, the longest we can be on duty is 12 hours. If it's after 6 AM, it's 12 hours plus one minute of duty for every minute after 6 AM the trip starts. This prevents those early morning deals with extremely late finishes. We also have something similar for later starts, preventing the company from putting us on a 14 hour duty day starting at, say, 8 PM (we fly people, not freight!).

These little things stop (or at least reduces) the company from scheduling those pairings that have a 1 hour flight with 4 hours of sitting, followed by 1 hour of flight with another 4 hour sit. When it comes out of the company pocket book things start to get more efficient .

Another thing that's cool about our contract is the 8 hours of rest behind the hotel door. While a lot of companies give FAR min rest as defined by going off duty and going on duty, that doesn't include the travel time to the hotel and back (generally 40+ minutes when you factor in the waiting time, driving, etc. out and back). So 8 hours of "rest" could easily become 7 hours of actual behind the door 'rest'. And that wouldn't include you winding down, getting into bed, talking to the significant other, taking a shower, etc. I personally feel 8 hours of rest is much too little - it should be at least 10.

[Timbuff10]

Ok, that doesn't sound like a bad deal really. Skywest just shot up on my list big time!

So is it just a matter of time before they try and rewrite the contract and make you guys sleep on planes and stuff like they do at Mesa? Or is this something likely to stay the same?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Ok, that doesn't sound like a bad deal really. Skywest just shot up on my list big time!

So is it just a matter of time before they try and rewrite the contract and make you guys sleep on planes and stuff like they do at Mesa? Or is this something likely to stay the same?

I'm not sure if skywest has any of that. I don't work there.

I know they do have some deal where you get 1 hour of flight pay for every hour over 12 hours of duty time, but that's all I really know. I'm sure a skywester will chime in sometime.

On another note, I heard CNN is running a special on pilot fatigue tomorrow (well today, I need to go to bed!) on "American Morning". Not sure where in the show it will be though.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm not sure if skywest has any of that. I don't work there.
.

whoops, sorry, I misread that up there.

[pilot602]

I'm not sure if skywest has any of that. I don't work there.

It doesn't. Plus, you're forgetting, 30 seats or under can work 34 in 7, 120/month and 1200/yr.

My first trip off IOE I did an 8:19 LAYOVER to a 4:40 a.m. show with 8 legs (20 minute turns) the next day which was the last day of what ended up being a 5 day trip follwed by one day of reserve for a total of a six day work block.

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I like this quote:


I haven't ever worked for scheduling but they are people just like us trying to make a buck. Why the need to cut them down?

Thanks wheelsup, I am not here trying to start a fight that pilot's have it easy. I am trying to say that it is inappropriate to slam an entire group for doing a job that is a neccessity for you to be able to do your job.

Pilot602, as for the question of whether or not I have ever done it for a 121 carrier out of training the answer is yes I did it for ten months and have heard everything in the book. Furthermore I had to know pilot's and F/A's contracts inside and out that took three months of training. Don't speak to me like I do not understand the difficulties that you go through.

You make a complaint about being in a hotel bed just about every night in the month, I understand that is not the greatest thing in the world, but it comes with the job. I made a choice when I finished school, I could continue flight instructing move on to flying for a living never see my fiance or family, or I could move down the operational side and have a decent quality of life and make a good living. The fact is that I made the choice to move into operations and I do not complain to anyone else about how my life is. Bottom line if you hate it or the job is ruining your family life then do something else.

If you read my first post you see that I am in favor of you having shorter duty days. I am a big supporters of pilots and f/a's having representation that will force the company to treat them fairly. You have to realize that if your group has a union, your work rules are negotiated. If you want shorter days start with your reps and bargain for it in a contract. The 121 carrier that I came from had it so pilots were limited to a 14.5 duty day if they had regular rest or a later show time, but if they were clocking in before 5 a.m. or were on reduced rest then their duty days were cut shorter. Again if your work rules are so terrible jump up the union reps rear to bargain more effectively. If your company does not have a union, start a drive to get one. Finally, you say if the company bargained in good faith then you might have better qol, guess what if you are unionized your reps first have to tentatively agree to a contract, then second the pilots must vote for it. If you do not like what you see then do not agree. Management will do whatever they can to save a buck, but does that does not mean that you need to lay down and let them walk all over you.

Maybe the sickness/ commuting thing was an unfair jab but no worse then calling people worhtless. Aviation is like any other business some people take advantage of the system. I can tell you from experience that most people that call in sick are genuine and deserve to be treated with dignity that scheduling does not always afford. At the same time I can tell you stories about people abusing the system, reserve CA calling in sick anytime he had a trip he did not like, f/a calling in sick while sitting at the pool not realizing scheduling supervisor was there as well. We all know people that abuse the system, if you are going to complain about flights being added to your schedule you should first stand up and say something to those responsible.

Don't tell me that commuting is a necessity, 99.9 % of all working adults must live where there job is, if you have problem with commuting then live at your base and your problem will be solved. If I want to work for Airtran you bet I will be packing my bags for MCO because that is how the world turns. Do not expect anyone to feel badly for you because you had a tought time getting to work, it is your choice to live where you live.

I have dragged this on long enough, I enjoy my life and my career, I work long days like anyone else, but at the end of the day I am proud of what I do. I am now a dispatcher and it is a great job, but I do have the utmost respect for schedulers, everyday they are abused for trying to get flights moving. It is very easy to blame a group for your troubles, but you need to look more in depth and realize schedulers are simply the messengers that are trying to keep an airline running. I apologize if anyone takes offense to this post, but I believe that it is only fair for both sides to be able to present their point of view.

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by pilot602

HAHAH. Yes we would. If all the schedulers quit a pilot, a janitor, a secratary (insert any job type) could fill in with very, very, very little training. The same can not be said if the roles were reversed. In other, simpler, words. I can do your job but you can not do mine.

I would really like to see you go do a schedulers job, I will also laugh at your smug butt when you consistenly violate the FAR's. My former 121 carrier had three months just learning contracts, I would love to see you figure that out. You make it sound to as if your company does not have a union. If that is the case you may not understand how complicated these contracts are. I would like to ask other pilots that have unions, how much of the contract have you read, how much of it can you put into use by memory. This is not to point out a fault with pilots, most have better things to do then get intimate with a contract. A scheduler must be able to schedule within the FAR's and then go one step further and schedule within a contract. You screw that up and you have eitheir violated an regulation or part of the contract. Pilot609 i am sorry if you have had a bad experince with scheduling, but chances are you have caused problems for those people as well.

By the way, you say that I can not do your job, I am going to throw out a giant bull ##### on that one. Oh what's that CFI/I with multi-engine rating. Stick it, I know how to fly a plane, teach a student, and dispatch a plane, you? You make assumptions, and they are dead wrong, so quit being arrogant and givng groups a bad name.