DC ADIZ induced Fatality?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

All perfectly valid thoughts...but ones that need to be kept under control until safely on the ground.

Stress management is a vital skill for a pilot. It's a mindset more than anything else.

I'm glad that you're super pilot. Now perhaps you'd like to explain how horrible the pilots are who end up dead. Many of these pilots have more experience than you and I will ever get in our lifetimes and are better sticks than we can dream of.

I guess Crossfield was a horrific pilot, because he ended up dead.

The ADIZ may not have been the main reason why this guy crashed, but it certainly could have contributed to it. Something that may have contributed to the death of a man while doing not one thing to help protect us is moronic.

[averyrm]

Its the same thing as departing from a class D without contacting anyone. It's his fault he left, if he lost control because of being told to return and land, that's his fault too.

Whether or not the ADIZ helps protect 'merica is a totally different issue, McDonalds contributes to more deaths per year than the ADIZ, but you're not up in arms about that. Or is just for arguments sake, because almost every post you make seems to just be an argument.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by averyrm

Its the same thing as departing from a class D without contacting anyone.

Hmmm, so this gets me thinking. After 9/11 when the FAA (or homeland security or however it was) sat down and decided to restrict the airspace why didn't they just make the Class B surface areas stretch out and cover the mode C area for the most part? It seems this would have made the most sense, right?

Instead they decided to use the ADIZ which was originally used out over the ocean to keep our borders safe. Seems to me they kinda used the wrong tool to do the job?

Anyone know why they didn't use class B and instead came up with an ADIZ?

[averyrm]

That makes a lot more sense to me too. Plus then you wouldn't have pilots from other parts of the country unfamiliar with it.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by averyrm

Its the same thing as departing from a class D without contacting anyone. It's his fault he left, if he lost control because of being told to return and land, that's his fault too.

Sure it is. But what I don't like is the "well, he must have been a horrible pilot because a little thing like that made him crash" attitude.

It's like seeing a hall of fame corner get burnt for one touchdown and saying, God, he sucks.

How many times does "pilot error" show up as a cause of a crash? A lot.

Are you willing to say that they all must be horrible pilots because they made a mistake? I'm not.

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Anyone know why they didn't use class B and instead came up with an ADIZ?

They tried that, it was called "enhanced class B".

Mike

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

I just listened to the ATC transmission and it seems to me that the controller was pretty cool about this. Didn't he instruct the pilot to turn his transponder off, land immediately at Tipton, and that he would probably get away with this?

Yeah, that's pretty much what he said, and he'll probably get a severe reprimand at the very least for directing the pilot to violate the ADIZ rules.

Regarding the posts on my comments about the way people react to the tone and pace of instructions, that is a well documented phenomenon. If you speak loud and fast, people will try to do things fast and often screw up. The military is replete with examples of inducing stress in this manner. The military doesn't have a patent on the technology. If you'd like to test it yourself, go out on the ramp and direct a few planes to park. Wave frantically, while vigorously point to a parking spot and watch how the plane is maneuvered. Then do the same with slow steady motions and see what happens. I got a dollar says the first guy will rush because you are implying urgency and the second guy will maneuver smooth and slow. The controller in this case very much communicated a sense of urgency that was not needed, because the violation had already happened.

Timbuff10, mtsu, nosehair, you get my point. My assertion is the ADIZ procedures were indeed a link in this accident chain. For many pilots that fly in the area, it's fairly obvious the ADIZ adds little to our national security. So long as your friendly terrorist files, squawks and talks, he can fly right up to the edge of the FRZ, before anyone gets upset. Further, the ADIZ at the very, very least detracts from flight safety by contributing to frequency congestion due to the requirement for all VFR traffic to communicate with Departure. So my premise is the ADIZ compromises safety of flight with zero tangible benefit and was a link in this particular accident chain.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

They tried that, it was called "enhanced class B".

Mike

So what went wrong? To me, making it all class B sounds like a great idea that I can't see anything bad coming out of really? And when I say "great idea", I mean when compared to the ADIZ.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by Tiger815

So my premise is the ADIZ compromises safety of flight with zero tangible benefit and was a link in this particular accident chain.

That is why this whole thing ticks me off a bit. The ADIZ does make flying more difficult in this area. For me, after a couple flights I figured it out and it is easily manageable but for people who are new to the area, I can see it really throwing them off in the right (or wrong) situation and we really don't get any benefit from it. Like you said, any terrorist with a fertalizer bomb and a plane big enough to carry it could fly as close to about 10 miles of the white house before anyone would think anything of it.

[Purdue_Pilot]

I'd like to add a little perspective on this situation being a CFI in the ADIZ practicing landings with students at tipton daily and knowing the controller whose voice is on the other end on the ATC recording.

The most important thing said so far is the age old is to fly the aircraft first and communicate later. I'm sure the pilot could have told you this on the ground before he departed. However, a few factors might have contributed to the stressful situation.

Weather at the time was around 1000 feet overcast and 3 miles visibility and Tipton lies between the BWI class B surface area and the inner Flight Restricted Zone of the DC airspace. Even if it were possible to take off and obtain a clearance airborne, I can't imagine why this pilot would want to when there is little room around that area to maneuver under 1000 feet with several radio towers topping out at 500 feet.

The demeaner and communications from that particular controller are normal and expected for those of us who talk to Potomac Approach day after day. The controllers do get snippy at transient pilots who do not understand the rules of the ADIZ. It can be unprofessional at times, but it is also unbelievable that pilots come into this area without the knowledge required to operate within the ADIZ. This is the most well known piece of airspace in the country. Being told to land quickly to try and get away with it is also common. The controllers see how rediculous the ADIZ is as many are pilots themselves. However, the only repercusion would have been a couple marks on the permanent record. The 30 day suspension for the ADIZ violation is routinely lifted with a timely filed NASA ASRP form.

It was very apparent in may 2005 that the FAA will launch helicopters and fighter jets at anyone who strays too close to DC without authorization. The only reason that 152 wasn't shot down was because it was a 152 and he was the first. We are all afraid of that same situation happening again with a larger aircraft. I have personally seen "freedom at work" watching F-16's scream by to intercept an "intruder" aircraft. It was a flock of birds. One of my fellow CFI's was told a year ago that F-16's were launched at him even though he was squawking his assigned code and talking to potomac (they forgot who he was for a minute) but the F-16's never got to him because they were vectored by potomac approach around arrival traffic. So i can see how this PA46 pilot was scared of exactly what might happen if he stayed in the air much longer.

Of course the pilot and his passenger would have lived if he would have thought about aviating first. And we've all encounted stressful situation while flying that we must handle to operate in this industry. But I think the ADIZ and the threat of force it implies adds undue stress to aircraft the size of your vovlo.

IF ANYONE FROM OUTSIDE THE ADIZ AREA IS PLANNING ON VENTURING INTO THE ADIZ AND YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE RULES OF THE AREA, PLEASE CONTACT ME AND I CAN HELP YOU AVOID HEARING "LAND IMMEDIATELY AND CALL THIS NUMBER."

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by Purdue_Pilot

IF ANYONE FROM OUTSIDE THE ADIZ AREA IS PLANNING ON VENTURING INTO THE ADIZ AND YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE RULES OF THE AREA, PLEASE CONTACT ME AND I CAN HELP YOU AVOID HEARING "LAND IMMEDIATELY AND CALL THIS NUMBER."

My simple answer to every ADIZ question is: "Don't squawk 1200 in the ADIZ." But yea, I fly here everyday and would be happy to help anyone who needs an answer to an ADIZ question as well. Send a PM.


Mike

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

My simple answer to every ADIZ question is: "Don't squawk 1200 in the ADIZ." But yea, I fly here everyday and would be happy to help anyone who needs an answer to an ADIZ question as well. Send a PM.

Maybe those of us who deal with the ADIZ crap on a regular basis could put together an FAQ for the pilot's toolbox here?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by tonyw

Maybe those of us who deal with the ADIZ crap on a regular basis could put together an FAQ for the pilot's toolbox here?

That'd be swell.

[nosehair]

so,...does anyone know what he actually did that caused him to crash?
Maybe it had nothing to do with controller communication.
Anybody know?

[Timbuff10]

I don't think anyone knows right now.

Here is the preliminary from the FAA:
http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...a/B_1020_N.txt

I did hear the other day from a guy that was up there that they used 100LL in the plane. Can't help but notice from this photo that 100LL probably isn't the best fuel to put in that bird. http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=250642

Isn't that thing turbine powered?

[Van_Hoolio]

I've heard that you can put 100LL in turbines and it will run, just not that great.

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

I've heard that you can put 100LL in turbines and it will run, just not that great.

It will run just fine at normal power settings. After a certain number of hours, it starts to burn the hot section of the engine due to a different flashpoint.

It's approved as an "emergency" fuel in military aircraft, but the aircraft is grounded once that flight is over...

[Hacker15e]

I just looked in the T-38 flight manual and found a couple interesting things about using AVGAS in a jet...

In the Talon (J85 engine) it's a 3-hour operating limit using AVGAS. Also, they want you to use a 3% solution of lubricant mixed with the AVGAS.