Confronting my instructor

[AngelFuree]

Here's my situation (keeping it short):
(I've already made a decision)

I am a CFII student. I originally had an instructor teaching me CFII. However, he got hired by a regional and couldn't finish teaching me. That's fine, congratulations to him. I had two substitute CFIs after that, one didn't have time to work with me while the next one did. Well, the one that did have time was COMPLETELY irresponsible. He cancelled two lessons on me without calling me. I had to call HIM for him to tell me that they were cancelled. I decided not to take any more #### from him, and decided to not fly with him anymore. I went to complain to the guy in charge of assigning instructors look ing for a permanent instructor. Ok, well after the weekend passed, I got the new instructor. I didn't realize this instructor was a complete new-hire. The first lessons went well because it was just reviewing information from the instrument course. However, getting into the portion where I have to teach showed his lack of experience.

My instructor has never taught any Instrument Rating students before yet he's teaching me CFII. The school is taking advantage of the lack of regulation permitting and CFIIs from teaching non-initial instructor students, and since I have my CFI, then there is no hour minimums for my instructor to teach me. The whole 200 hour dual given requirement (and the other req's) doesn't apply to him since I'm not an initial instructor student.
The first lessons went well, and as such, I decided to continue w/ him for a couple of more lessons. My instructor is very knowledgable, he knows his stuff really well. What's missing is his experience teaching instrument students. He's never taught an instrument student, so there's no way he can share experience with me if he's never dealt w/ an instrument student. All he can do is discuss knowledge, but there's no hands-on experience from his part.
What really did it for me was today's briefing. I felt rushed, and felt his anxiety to get out of that briefing room. I don't want to sound cocky at all (I promise I'm not), but I feel that I'm not the boring type of student/instructor student. My instructor this summer for CFI, on numerous ocassions had complimented me on different aspects of my teaching, and he liked how I wasn't boring like some of his other students, he had mentioned. Good voice dynamics, etc. He enjoyed doing briefings with me and I saw it in his face how he enjoyed sitting down with me as his student. This instructor, however, shows his anxiety to just wanna leave the room and get done w/ the briefing. I feel he's the time-builder-only type of instructor, and that is certainly not conducive to productive training. I was so disconcentrated today by his pen tapping and looking at the clock that I just couldn't teach like I always do. I asked him if he was ok. He asked friendly, "why do you ask?" and I told him I could see his anxiety. He said, "oooh no, I'm not anxious at all! Let's keep going" So I continued, but I couldn't concentrate on the lesson anymore. I was more concentrated on his boredom.

So that really did it for me, and I decided to take a choice and do one more lesson w/ him (tomorrow) and find someone else.

The advice I'm looking from you guys is on how I should approach him. I don't want to make him feel bad 'cause he's certainly a really nice guy, but it's not the type of instructor I'm looking for...

I will also go tomorrow to talk w/ the Chief Pilot here and discuss my situation with him. The Chief Pilot is REALLY nice and understanding, so I'm sure he might be able to help. He's not in charge of assigning instructors, but I want him to know of my dissatisfaction with the school's choice to give me a newly-hired instructor that probably has less than 50 dual given. It's irresponsible, I feel. I'm not gonna go complain to him 'cause it's not his fault, but as the customer and student, I need to let him know aware of my issues and how my money is going into something that isn't productive.

I realize there's no nice/good way of delivering the news to my instructor, but I want to do it in the least of bad ways.

Any ideas?

Shiiiiit, I said it was gonna be short, but it was long, sorry, and thanks a lot to all that read it!

[DE727UPS]

I assume you are at UND. That would make an comments I have completely irrelevent. Good luck...

[JEP]

I was my CFII's first instrument student and I passed my ride with no problems.....If your styles do not mesh then it is ebst you move on. Nothing wrong at all. Just tell him what you have told us and move on. It's you money....

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I assume you are at UND. That would make an comments I have completely irrelevent. Good luck...

I am, but no worries, feel free to share your thoughts. If it doesn't help me, I'm sure it will help someone else in a similar situation. Thanks.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by JEP

I was my CFII's first instrument student and I passed my ride with no problems.....If your styles do not mesh then it is ebst you move on. Nothing wrong at all. Just tell him what you have told us and move on. It's you money....

Hmm kinda confused from your reply, but I'm my CFII's first instrument student and it's for CFII...not Instrument. I'm doing CFII, not instrument, and he's never taught an instrument student before. Sorry, if I confused you from my long post.

[AngelFuree]

Again, I'm not asking for guidance in terms of keeping him or not. I already made my decision (like I mentioned in the beginning of the post) that I will move on (lol, sounds like a relationship). I just don't want to be so blunt about it. (damnit, it's sounding like a relationship, breaking up with someone hahaha)

I'm looking for effective communication

[JEP]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Hmm kinda confused from your reply, but I'm my CFII's first instrument student and it's for CFII...not Instrument. I'm doing CFII, not instrument, and he's never taught an instrument student before. Sorry, if I confused you from my long post.

No confusion at all. I read it fully. That is odd that he is teaching the CFII and yet he has never had an instrument student. There will always be 'the first time' for each CFI. That being said, if you are uncomfortable with him, then change instructors and give the reasons you gave us. Again, it is your money....

[falconvalley]

Part of the problem in this situation is the policy of "assigning" instructors to students. I realize it's policy in some organizations and it usually works, but in your case, your a new instructor, with a new instructor. That just isn't right...

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Any ideas?

I'm very impressed that you actually want to learn something. Most -II students that I see are looking for the person who will get them through the rating with the minimum number of flight hours. After all, the rating only requires a couple of approaches shot from the right seat, right? (So they think.) They often do seek out brand-new -II's, with the expectation that they won't charge them and will know what's on the checkride.

[JaceTheAce]

just say "i don't think we are compatable in this relationship"

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Here's my situation (keeping it short):
(I've already made a decision)

I am a CFII student. I originally had an instructor teaching me CFII. However, he got hired by a regional and couldn't finish teaching me. That's fine, congratulations to him. I had two substitute CFIs after that, one didn't have time to work with me while the next one did. Well, the one that did have time was COMPLETELY irresponsible. He cancelled two lessons on me without calling me. I had to call HIM for him to tell me that they were cancelled. I decided not to take any more #### from him, and decided to not fly with him anymore. I went to complain to the guy in charge of assigning instructors look ing for a permanent instructor. Ok, well after the weekend passed, I got the new instructor. I didn't realize this instructor was a complete new-hire. The first lessons went well because it was just reviewing information from the instrument course. However, getting into the portion where I have to teach showed his lack of experience.

My instructor has never taught any Instrument Rating students before yet he's teaching me CFII. The school is taking advantage of the lack of regulation permitting and CFIIs from teaching non-initial instructor students, and since I have my CFI, then there is no hour minimums for my instructor to teach me. The whole 200 hour dual given requirement (and the other req's) doesn't apply to him since I'm not an initial instructor student.
The first lessons went well, and as such, I decided to continue w/ him for a couple of more lessons. My instructor is very knowledgable, he knows his stuff really well. What's missing is his experience teaching instrument students. He's never taught an instrument student, so there's no way he can share experience with me if he's never dealt w/ an instrument student. All he can do is discuss knowledge, but there's no hands-on experience from his part.
What really did it for me was today's briefing. I felt rushed, and felt his anxiety to get out of that briefing room. I don't want to sound cocky at all (I promise I'm not), but I feel that I'm not the boring type of student/instructor student. My instructor this summer for CFI, on numerous ocassions had complimented me on different aspects of my teaching, and he liked how I wasn't boring like some of his other students, he had mentioned. Good voice dynamics, etc. He enjoyed doing briefings with me and I saw it in his face how he enjoyed sitting down with me as his student. This instructor, however, shows his anxiety to just wanna leave the room and get done w/ the briefing. I feel he's the time-builder-only type of instructor, and that is certainly not conducive to productive training. I was so disconcentrated today by his pen tapping and looking at the clock that I just couldn't teach like I always do. I asked him if he was ok. He asked friendly, "why do you ask?" and I told him I could see his anxiety. He said, "oooh no, I'm not anxious at all! Let's keep going" So I continued, but I couldn't concentrate on the lesson anymore. I was more concentrated on his boredom.

So that really did it for me, and I decided to take a choice and do one more lesson w/ him (tomorrow) and find someone else.

The advice I'm looking from you guys is on how I should approach him. I don't want to make him feel bad 'cause he's certainly a really nice guy, but it's not the type of instructor I'm looking for...

I will also go tomorrow to talk w/ the Chief Pilot here and discuss my situation with him. The Chief Pilot is REALLY nice and understanding, so I'm sure he might be able to help. He's not in charge of assigning instructors, but I want him to know of my dissatisfaction with the school's choice to give me a newly-hired instructor that probably has less than 50 dual given. It's irresponsible, I feel. I'm not gonna go complain to him 'cause it's not his fault, but as the customer and student, I need to let him know aware of my issues and how my money is going into something that isn't productive.

I realize there's no nice/good way of delivering the news to my instructor, but I want to do it in the least of bad ways.

Any ideas?

Shiiiiit, I said it was gonna be short, but it was long, sorry, and thanks a lot to all that read it!

Take it up with the Chief pilot. Request another instructor. For CFII, I would request a check airmen if you have one. You want someone experienced...

Remember, you are the customer...

The instructor that cancelled on you twice without notice should be canned if he hasn't been already...

ILS

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Take it up with the Chief pilot. Request another instructor. For CFII, I would request a check airmen if you have one. You want someone experienced...

Remember, you are the customer...

The instructor that cancelled on you twice without notice should be canned if he hasn't been already...

ILS

So should the student get canned when they cancel on you twice?

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Take it up with the Chief pilot. Request another instructor. For CFII, I would request a check airmen if you have one. You want someone experienced...

Remember, you are the customer...

The instructor that cancelled on you twice without notice should be canned if he hasn't been already...

ILS

Thank you. Indeed. Everyone that knows me knows of my "customer-first" mentality and, as such, value every single minute of training because daddy isn't paying for it. I need to have quality instruction because I'm practically feeding them. I already complained about the other instructor, but I'm sure they won't do anything. After all, "oooooh yeah....he's been here for a while."

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

So should the student get canned when they cancel on you twice?

Do you realize what the situation is, Luke? It's not about an instructor cancelling on the student, or the student cancelling on the instructor. It is the lack of communication that is absolutely unacceptable. There is no way around it. Irresponsibility is the problem at hand. I was your student for maybe four lessons...if you would have cancelled on me, I wouldn't had criticized you because you let me know. Remember, you were honest with me. You dropped me as your student for the sole reason of not having enough time to fly with me (and you might have cancelled a lesson with me) but you NOTIFIED me, and I saw no problem with that. Let's keep this clear and simple. You were/are a busy instructor, but you were never irresponsible. Do you agree?

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

So should the student get canned when they cancel on you twice?

Do you remember the definition of professionalism from when you became an instructor. If he worked for me, down the road.

The student gets charged $50.00 an hour for no shows.... Why should he be exempt?

ILS

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Do you realize what the situation is, Luke? It's not about an instructor cancelling on the student, or the student cancelling on the instructor. It is the lack of communication that is absolutely unacceptable. There is no way around it. Irresponsibility is the problem at hand. I was your student for maybe four lessons...if you would have cancelled on me, I wouldn't had criticized you because you let me know. Remember, you were honest with me. You dropped me as your student for the sole reason of not having enough time to fly with me (and you might have cancelled a lesson with me) but you NOTIFIED me, and I saw no problem with that. Let's keep this clear and simple. You were/are a busy instructor, but you were never irresponsible. Do you agree?

I was refering to ILS's post. Just wondering his thoughts on what should happen to a student who constantly no shows (cause obviously the no show charge isn't working).

As for your problems, they're legit. I agree it is unprofessional if he doesn't let you know. Take it up with Jeremy. He's definitely a reasonable and professional guy.

Btw, what airplane are you doing CFII in?

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

I was refering to ILS's post. Just wondering his thoughts on what should happen to a student who constantly no shows (cause obviously the no show charge isn't working).

As for your problems, they're legit. I agree it is unprofessional if he doesn't let you know. Take it up with Jeremy. He's definitely a reasonable and professional guy.

Btw, what airplane are you doing CFII in?

I wasn't trying to be harsh with the response, just straight up forward and honest.

If the student consistantly no shows the Cheif should be having a sit down with him. I think you and I both know that if that is the students mentality, he won't make it very far. He/she is probably flying on daddy's credit card.

As for us instructors, the student is the one paying our bills. They are the customer and should be treated accordingly, good or bad...

ILS

[TXaviator]

im going to give Angel my power of attorney. thus, he can do the bitching for me when things need to get done. :-D

[Screaming_Emu]

I think I would be honest with the instructor, say something like "I enjoyed flying with you, you definately know your stuff, but I think UND was unfair to both of us by putting us together." I'm not a CFI for UND, but if I was a newhire and they gave me a CFII student, I know I would feel a tad uncomfortable about it, so I would guess that he does too. You gotta do what you gotta do, you're paying good money to be here, UND should really step up and give you what you need.

[launchpad]

just tell him that you want someone more experienced to teach you how to be a CFII...that's it.....he may feel bad, etc. etc., but as the others have said, it's your money.......in the end, you'll learn more if both of you are comfortable with the environment. If you're spending your time trying to find ways to make yourself think this instructor is a good one, then you're not learning anything.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

I was so disconcentrated today by his pen tapping and looking at the clock that I just couldn't teach like I always do. I asked him if he was ok. He asked friendly, "why do you ask?" and I told him I could see his anxiety. He said, "oooh no, I'm not anxious at all! Let's keep going" So I continued, but I couldn't concentrate on the lesson anymore. I was more concentrated on his boredom.

OK, Sir, here is where you are dropping the ball.

YOU ARE AN INSTRUCTOR. ALREADY. You don't need anyone to teach you to be an instructor. Sure, you need to get experienced at it, and here is your chance. Treat this behavior exactly like a real student. When you have a student who is giving you the body language of being bored or not paying attention, it is your job to correct that.

That may be his objective. Maybe not, but it is your job to find that out.

Focus on his inability to stay with you in the briefings, and if you can't fix the problem, then you go to the Chief Instructor with your "problem student". Maybe he is to much for you to handle. But learn to take the lesson from a bad instructor the same as you will encounter with bad students.

Really, you are an instructor. You only need a "body" to practice teaching specific instrument skills. A young newbe is good for that.

[KLB]

I kinda agree with that. But I do understand your frustration with paying you or your parents hard earned money to an instructor who doesn't want to be there. By now, you should have the teaching aspect under your belt somewhat. Now all you have to do is apply it to instrument training. You'll figure out that it doesn't matter what way you learned it or how you presented to your CFI/CFII......you'll probably have to present the information a little differently to every student you teach.

[JaceTheAce]

Whoa, I have to disagree with everything you say here.

You do need an experienced CFII who has had prior experience with teaching instrument students to teach you how to teach Instrument students. Teaching a CFII applicant how to teach instrument students requires previous experience so that they can show the student some common learning retention obstacles involved with learning instrument flying.

Unless Angel's instructor is pretending to be bored to get him used to regaining a student's attention on boring subject matter, it is unprofessional.

Originally Posted by nosehair

OK, Sir, here is where you are dropping the ball.

YOU ARE AN INSTRUCTOR. ALREADY. You don't need anyone to teach you to be an instructor. Sure, you need to get experienced at it, and here is your chance. Treat this behavior exactly like a real student. When you have a student who is giving you the body language of being bored or not paying attention, it is your job to correct that.

That may be his objective. Maybe not, but it is your job to find that out.

Focus on his inability to stay with you in the briefings, and if you can't fix the problem, then you go to the Chief Instructor with your "problem student". Maybe he is to much for you to handle. But learn to take the lesson from a bad instructor the same as you will encounter with bad students.

Really, you are an instructor. You only need a "body" to practice teaching specific instrument skills. A young newbe is good for that.

[AngelFuree]

He is not pretending to be the student. He always tells me that we should keep the briefings short. He basically wants me to lecture my way through everything so that we keep the briefing the shortest possible.

There's a difference between having a bored student and having a bored instructor. If you, the student, have a bored instructor, are you really gonna feel like being there with him/her? It's pretty simple, guys.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by KLB

You'll figure out that it doesn't matter what way you learned it or how you presented to your CFI/CFII......you'll probably have to present the information a little differently to every student you teach.

Ah yes, agreed, but if you remember from your CFI training, I'm sure your instructor provided feedback on different ways to approach topics. Everyone teaches differently, and for that reason, it is important to be exposed to different ways of teaching. There's so much to learn in the instructor courses. I want to be a good instructor. I want my students to say, "I really like Angel as my instructor. He knows how to teach very well." (Don't we all want that?)