DP/SIDs

[AngelFuree]

I'm preparing a lesson plan on Departure, Enroute, and Approach procedures. I'm stuck in differentiating SIDs from DPs from ODPs to Pilot Nav DPs...I'm reading the Jeppesen Instrument/Commercial book, and though it is EXCELLENT, this is one thing it's confusing me with. Anyone care to help me out? Thank you!

[mtsu_av8er]

Basically, A Departure Procedure (DP) is a pre-planned procedure designed to allow the pilot to transition from the airport to the enroute structure. That's a easy part.

Now, there are two basica types of DP's - Obstacle Departure Procedures, and Standard Instrument Departures. Obstacle DP's are designed to keep the pilot clear of obstacles in the area. An example of this would be the Titan One Departure out of Nashville.

A standard Instrument Departure (SID) is primarily designed to reduce workload, both on the part of the pilot AND the controller. Sometimes, it even includes the departure frequency and everything - reducing workload even more! A perfect example of this is the Teterboro Five departure out of KTEB, as follows:

Imagine the clearance for an aircraft when Runway 24 is in use:

"Skyhawk 556LM, fly runway heading until reaching 1500 feet, then turn right heading 280. Maintain 1500 feet until passing the TEB 4.5 DME, then climb and maintain 2000 feet . . . "

Or, this way - when given the clearance:

"Skyhawk 556LM, cleared to Norfolk, Virginia Via the Teterboro Five departure, then as filed . . . "

It sure makes everybody happy!!


Pilot NAV? That simply means that it's the pilots responsibility to fly the charted or textual procedure. The other type would be Radar Vectors, which simply means that the pilot can expect radar vectors to transition onto the enroute structure.

Did any of that make sense?

[AngelFuree]

Thanks!

From what I got out of the book:


Graphic DPs
SIDs: Traffic flow
ODPs: Obstacle clearance

Don't know if that's accurate or not

and then you have Pilot Nav and Vector, and this is talking about the way you execute the DPs...

Too many acronyms

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Thanks!

From what I got out of the book:


Graphic DPs
SIDs: Traffic flow
ODPs: Obstacle clearance

Don't know if that's accurate or not

and then you have Pilot Nav and Vector, and this is talking about the way you execute the DPs...

Too many acronyms

You got it!

[AngelFuree]

Excellent, thank you sirrrr!

[mtsu_av8er]

Anytime!!

[EDUC8-or]

Some DP/SIDs can be rather complex and others very simple.

For example: The LaGuardia Nine (depending on which runway you use for takeoff) can involve lots of steps. Check out the Coney Climb if you get a chance. http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0610/00289LAGUARDIA_C.PDF

On the other end of the spectrum there's some basic SIDs where you simply fly runway or assigned heading, maintain a certain altitude, and expect vectors on course.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I was under the impression that DPs were just the new name/designation for SIDs. The only reason SID is around is because thats what people still call them on occasion.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

I was under the impression that DPs were just the new name/designation for SIDs. The only reason SID is around is because thats what people still call them on occasion.

Yeah...and that's what I thought as well.......

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

On the other end of the spectrum there's some basic SIDs where you simply fly runway or assigned heading, maintain a certain altitude, and expect vectors on course.

VTU5 out of LAX is much like this. GMN4 (or maybe 5 by now) is also like this, except you do get a vector to a heading to intercept the LAX 323 radial, and then to continue the departure.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

I was under the impression that DPs were just the new name/designation for SIDs. The only reason SID is around is because thats what people still call them on occasion.

You are correct. SIDs are DPs. You will see "SID" still on some Jep plates however its simply because the chart hasnt changed yet. I've found it on some po-dunk airports.

[surreal1221]

Actually. . .

SIDs became DPs, then were back to SIDs after the ICAO had some beef about changing the abbreviation. This transition all happened between 02-04.

This was a big topic during CTI, but I'll have to search and rummage through a number of papers and books to find the exact dates SID became a DP, and a DP became a SID again.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

You are correct.

No, he is not . . .

SIDs are DPs. You will see "SID" still on some Jep plates however its simply because the chart hasnt changed yet. I've found it on some po-dunk airports.

Well, you'll only see it there and in the AIM . . . Section 5-2-7.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Actually. . .

SIDs became DPs, then were back to SIDs after the ICAO had some beef about changing the abbreviation. This transition all happened between 02-04.

This was a big topic during CTI, but I'll have to search and rummage through a number of papers and books to find the exact dates SID became a DP, and a DP became a SID again.

Yep, that's right. The dropped the SID term but ended up bringing it back. I don't recall whether it was an ICAO issue or whether because they finally realized that it was just stupid to drop the term to begin with.

[surreal1221]

Yeah, I can't remember if it was solely an ICAO issue or if the ATO had beef with the charting office. There were a number of factors that caused the change, and then all of those factors were find to be insignificant. . . so they reverted back.

[Mahesh]

It was FAA order 8260.46B from January 03 that brought back "SID".

I am on a project where we are working to bring about "international harmoinzation" of future flight plans. There are a lot of disagreements between the FAA, EUROCONTROL and ICAO, especially things like equipment identifiers for RNP/RNAV.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...a/8260.46B.pdf

The original order combined into a single product textual, IFR departure
procedures that were developed by AVN-100 under the guidance of the Flight Standards
Service (AFS), and graphical Standard Instrument Departures (SIDs) that were designed and
produced under the guidance of the Air Traffic Service (AAT). This combined product
introduced the new acronym, Departure Procedures (DP), to the pilot/controller community and
the aforementioned terms of "instrument flight rule (IFR) departure procedure" and "SID" were
eliminated. The original order also provided for the graphic publication of IFR departure
procedures to facilitate pilot understanding of the procedure as well as all area navigation
(RNAV) DPs, both those developed solely for obstruction clearance and those developed for
system enhancement. Elimination of the term "SID" created undue confusion in both the
domestic and international aviation communities. Therefore, in the interest of international
harmonization, the FAA will reintroduce the term "SID" while also utilizing the term "Obstacle
Departure Procedures (ODP)" to describe certain procedures. Thus, this order will define two
separate types of DPs: SIDs and ODPs. This document establishes development, processing,
and management policy for the production of all DPs.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

VTU5 out of LAX is much like this. GMN4 (or maybe 5 by now) is also like this, except you do get a vector to a heading to intercept the LAX 323 radial, and then to continue the departure.

Of the times I've been to LGA ATC usually gives us a vector for BIGGY before we fly the whole procedure. Usually if I'm the PF I'll review it several times at the gate and then there is always a nice line for T/O so I've got it down fairly well.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

SIDs became DPs, then were back to SIDs after the ICAO had some beef about changing the abbreviation.

That and DP sounds like a porno term.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

That and DP sounds like a porno term.

Ain't even going to touch that one!