Mig-21/Cheyenne mid-air near PRC

[SteveC]

"Five dead in plane crash near Prescott"

[surreal1221]

Rip

[KW]

Wake turbulence perhaps? RIP.

[Swen]

What an unfortunate way....

[stuckingfk]

Didn't anyone learn from that Senator crash many years back?

Good lord people. If you can't formation fly, please don't try what this pilot did.

[MikeD]

Preliminarily, it appears the midair happened during what's commonly known as a "BD check" or Battle Damage check, or crossunder. This is a manuever whereby one can check underneath another aircraft in formation for any damage, leaks, etc. Though called a crossunder, the name is somewhat a misnomer. Even though you're crossing from one side of an airplane to the other, the most important thing that needs to be accomplished is to maintain nose-tail separation. Initially (minus the photography session), this accident appears to be similiar to the Piper PA-60 Aerostar/Bell 412SP midair that killed Senator John Heinz on 4 April 1991 over Merrion, Pennsylvania.

As an accident investigator myself, one of the first things I'd look at in this accident is the formation training and experience of the two crews involved. A close second would be how well this flight was briefed, not only the meat of the mission, but the elements of formation operations specific to dissimiliar aircraft types. Just because this was a air-air photo op doesn't necessarily mean either of the crews had specific formation training....we don't know if this was an amateur operation or a professional one. And in any event, we don't know how well it was briefed, or what formation contingencies (non-normal ops) were covered in said brief. Even if these were good to go, it could be as simple as pilot error during the maneuver due to inattention or mis-focused attention. All these things are what should, and I imagine will, be investigated. I personally will not fly formation with another pilot that hasn't been trained in such. I'm not talking flying in the vicinity of another aircraft (though that shouldbe briefed as well), I'm talking route formation and closer. Even with the training, a good pre-brief is imperitive so that both crews are "on the same page" on what's going on in the flight, and a good formation flight pre-brief should ideally allow the entire mission to be flown "comm out" if need be, since both crews will know what's happening at any given time during the flight, and any communication needed can be accomplished via hand signal(s).

Regarding formation flight itself, I DO NOT reccomend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.

Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot?

These are just but a few, among many questions that pilots undertaking formation flight MUST know, at a minimum. If ANY incident arises from pilots performing formation flight who haven't been trained in same, the FAA will have an easy case to justify suspending, or possibly revoking, the pilot's certificate under the 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation.

[SteveC]

Right on cue, Mike. I was really hoping that you, or one of our other formation trained pilots would use this unfortunate accident, whatever its cause, as a learning session. Thanks.

[I_WANNA_BE_ATP]

On a side note, did anyone notice that one of the sponsers is Jet U ??

Tragic loss, RIP

[alphaone]

RIP. Be safe peeps

[Doug Taylor]

Anyone have a name? I know a guy who flies a mig with his father on the airshow circuit...

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Anyone have a name? I know a guy who flies a mig with his father on the airshow circuit...

Probably too soon as it just occured today. You know with respect to family begin notified first. Info will probably come out later this week(end).

[Doug Taylor]

Effing A! The people I know that own MiG's live in Washington State...

Fatal crash after plane flew under vintage Soviet fighter jet
Lindsey Collom
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 18, 2006 07:15 PM
At least three people were killed Wednesday afternoon when a twin-engine plane on a flight to take pictures of a vintage Soviet jet fighter crashed outside Prescott, a Yavapai County official said.

The crash site was still too hot for investigators to enter more than four hours after the crash, said Scott Reed, a Yavapai County Sheriff's spokesman.

A twin-engine Piper Cheyenne and a MiG-21 UM fighter took off from the Prescott airport about 1:45 p.m. for a photo shoot, Reed said. As the Piper began to climb, an air traffic controller notified the pilot there was vapor coming from the right-hand engine, but the pilot did not appear to be concerned, according to Ian Gregor, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman.
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Minutes into the flight, the MiG pilot reported a possible problem with the landing gear. He told investigators that the Cheyenne appeared to fly beneath the jet to investigate, but it didn't resurface. The MiG pilot radioed air traffic controllers to say there may have been a mid-air collision at 8,900 feet, yet there was no sign of damage on the jet when it landed safely in Prescott, Gregor said.

Reed said there could have been as many as five people aboard the Cheyenne, both in-state and out-of-state residents. Further information was not available late Wednesday.

The MiG was registered out of Washington state, and an online FAA records search narrowed down two MiG-21 UM owners. No one from the Experimental Rocket Racing Association or Vulcan Warbirds could be reached for comment.

Investigators from the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board will investigate the crash.



The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Fortunately, the Mig was ok, but the Cheyenne didn't make it.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Okay...I'm no expert. But should a Piper be trying to get under a jet if for any reason? Wake turbulance and all that you know. Yea the MIG could put it "#### out" (Vso). But then wake turbulance would be more prevalent in that case. Since wake turbulance is more insidious when slow/dirty,clean etc. that and it flows down and back/out...

[jdflight]

Can't be dirty and clean at the same time. Wake is worst when slow clean and heavy, ie takeoff.

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Okay...I'm no expert. But should a Piper be trying to get under a jet if for any reason? Wake turbulance and all that you know. Yea the MIG could put it "#### out" (Vso). But then wake turbulance would be more prevalent in that case. Since wake turbulance is more insidious when slow/dirty,clean etc. that and it flows down and back/out...

I fly battle damage checks every day in fighters and trainers, and there is no problem with wake turbulence if the crossunder is done correctly. As another poster mentioned, the aircraft should have plenty of nose/tail separation hotizontally, and be well below the slipstream vertically.

The Piper should have been able to accomplish the BD check with no issues.

[fish314]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

I fly battle damage checks every day in fighters and trainers, and there is no problem with wake turbulence if the crossunder is done correctly. As another poster mentioned, the aircraft should have plenty of nose/tail separation hotizontally, and be well below the slipstream vertically.

The Piper should have been able to accomplish the BD check with no issues.

yeah, we do them it the tweets, too. ( <---See the avatar). And nose-tail separation is a BIG deal. There is a warning in the air-refueling manual for tankers (KC-135's) that says something along the lines of:

"Two airplanes flying in close veritical proximity is inherently dangerous due to a low pressure area resulting between the two aircraft that tends to move them together".

[SteveC]

Some more information from another site. The writer is an air traffic controller:

The victims haven't been publicly identified, and I know very few details anyway, so I can't say much at this point. The pilot of the Cheyenne and the photographer were both good friends of mine. The three of us, plus a couple of other fellows from the Prescott air show, were supposed to have dinner together tonight.

As far as I know, there was only one professional photographer onboard; the other victims were local "airport bums". I'm told it was one of those "hey, we're gonna go get some shots of the Mig, wanna go?" type situations.

The pilot of the Cheyenne was experienced in many different types of airplanes (including warbirds) and was formation-qualified. This was not an impromptu formation flight-- it was originally scheduled for the day after the Prescott air show (10/1). I was invited to ride in the Cheyenne on that flight, but the mission was cancelled due to flap problems with the Mig.

Speculation at the Prescott airport seems centered around wake turbulence/jet blast issues with the T-tail on the Cheyenne; the "vapor trail" on takeoff is being discounted as insignificant by most, although I don't know why.

[Hacker15e]

If the T-tail was up in the slipstream...he was doing it wrong.

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by fish314

yeah, we do them it the tweets, too. ( <---See the avatar).

I was a Tweet student at KCBM back in '99....Fairchild flight in the 37th, which then moved to the 41st when it stood up, and subsequently became Doolittle Flight after I moved over to the 50th.The Tweet's a fun little jet...I'd love to own one privately.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Effing A! The people I know that own MiG's live in Washington State...



Fortunately, the Mig was ok, but the Cheyenne didn't make it.

Cheyenne was owned by an LLC:

Registered Owner

Name FLYING MOOSE LLC
Street 135 W MAIN ST
City MISSOULA
State MONTANA
Zip Code 59802-4311
County MISSOULA
Country UNITED STATES

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by fish314

yeah, we do them it the tweets, too. ( <---See the avatar). And nose-tail separation is a BIG deal. There is a warning in the air-refueling manual for tankers (KC-135's) that says something along the lines of:

"Two airplanes flying in close veritical proximity is inherently dangerous due to a low pressure area resulting between the two aircraft that tends to move them together".

That same damn low pressure area I had to fight through to get to the boom in the Hog.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Effing A! The people I know that own MiG's live in Washington State...

Word that I have is the MIG pilot is Bob Ray of Graham Washington, UA pilot.

More word on some of the Cheyenne occupants:

The pilot of the Cheyenne was Billy Friedman, an ERAU grad who stayed after graduation and flew locally rather than chase an airline career (he may have been from Prescott originally, I don't know). He was the primary pilot for a C47 based at the airport and I've also seen him flying a Citation, a Baron, a T-28, and a T-6, as well as the Cheyenne. I believe he told me that the Cheyenne was owned by the fellow that owns The Outdoor Channel, <snip> but don't hold me to that. Billy served as Flight Operations director for the Prescott air show, was an experienced formation pilot, and was in charge of our warbird formation operations.

The photographer killed in the crash was Warren Parkes. Warren was Executive Director of the Prescott air show (aka, Arizona Airfest) and, with Billy, was the driving force behind the event.

The third identified victim is Don Morris. All I know about him is that he was a retired Southwest Airlines pilot and formerly lived in Coppell, Texas.

Ironically, Billy and Warren became the prime movers for the Prescott air show in the wake of a midair just prior to the 2002 show, in which the then-organizers of the show (Robert W. Sweginnis, chairman of the Aviation Science Department at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University's Prescott campus, and Michael E. Corradi, chief flight instructor), were killed while practicing an aerobatic routine.

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by MikeD

That same damn low pressure area I had to fight through to get to the boom in the Hog.

Yeah, well try it with a big jet! Talk about a PIG!!!! Filling a heavy jet to full tanks in weather is like roping a steer (at least mine is/was). I flew BOTH ends of the boom (started as a tanker pilot, then moved to JSTARS) and the first time I got to the contact position, I said, "I used to let guys get this close to my airplane? WHAT WAS I THINKING!"

Definitely some "funny" airflow back there, whether a large or small jet. If ya ain't trained, don't do it!

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

Yeah, well try it with a big jet! Talk about a PIG!!!! Filling a heavy jet to full tanks in weather is like roping a steer (at least mine is/was). I flew BOTH ends of the boom (started as a tanker pilot, then moved to JSTARS) and the first time I got to the contact position, I said, "I used to let guys get this close to my airplane? WHAT WAS I THINKING!"

Definitely some "funny" airflow back there, whether a large or small jet. If ya ain't trained, don't do it!

I can imagine. The only thing that ever unnerved me was once riding in the boom's station on a 135, and having an EC-130 receiver come in. Those 4 props that close to our plane......not comfortable, lol.

Filling in WX for as long as it takes to top off a heavy...I can imagine. Lol, why do the TOADs always find every cloud to go through, lol?

[Fiziks]

This is very sad indeed, I happened to fly over the crash site yesterday as it was in one of our practice areas and simply could not believe that this had happened so close to our airport yet again...RIP to all those killed and peace to their families.

There has been a lot of discussion around the airport lately, with news cameras and vans taking up most of the terminal parking lot and I have heard rumors that the tail was found 1/4 mile from the wreckage, but looking at this picture:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1126752/L

It seems the aircraft was mostly intact, and landed flat with little or no skidding or sliding on the ground, even the bushes directly behind the aircraft show no damage, what would something like that mean as far as aircraft control at the time of the crash? I know speculation of any sort is unhelpful, but I am just curious about what I see in this picture.

Stay safe out there!