failing recurrent training

[amorris311]

i have a question maybe a dumb one, but is it possible to fail recurrent training? if so what are the ramifications? does it happen a lot? do airlines give you a second chance? just a few questions thanks in advance for all of the replies.

[DE727UPS]

It's covered in the contract at my airline. You get additional training on deficient areas and a check on those. It doesn't happen a lot. You'd have to fail multiple checks but the language is there to send you back to your previous F/O or F/E seat. It would be nearly impossible to get fired, though I suppose it's happened. Thank goodness for unions.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

It's covered in the contract at my airline. You get additional training on deficient areas and a check on those. It doesn't happen a lot. You'd have to fail multiple checks but the language is there to send you back to your previous F/O or F/E seat. It would be nearly impossible to get fired, though I suppose it's happened. Thank goodness for unions.

Don't you think if multiple checks were failed that maybe they should be fired?

[DE727UPS]

Nope, they should go back to their previous seat. People sometimes go through some pretty traumatic stuff in life that can effect how they do in training. I once knew a gal who was one of the best pilots I've flown with who failed out of an upgrade and had to go back to the right seat. Her mom had just died. Also, if someone is "out to get you", anyone can bust a ride. Or you're having an off day. Then, you're sorta freaked out and you don't do well in the retraining. You'll get pretty much as much retraining as you need at my company but if you still can't hack it, you should move back the F/E seat or whatever. Thank gawd for unions...

[skydog]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Nope, they should go back to their previous seat. People sometimes go through some pretty traumatic stuff in life that can effect how they do in training. I once knew a gal who was one of the best pilots I've flown with who failed out of an upgrade and had to go back to the right seat. Her mom had just died. Also, if someone is "out to get you", anyone can bust a ride. Or you're having an off day. Then, you're sorta freaked out and you don't do well in the retraining. You'll get pretty much as much retraining as you need at my company but if you still can't hack it, you should move back the F/E seat or whatever. Thank gawd for unions...

That works really well until it is YOU that is affected. "Gee, Mr. Smith, we're awfully sorry your family is dead, but you know, the co-pilot was under a lot of stress, and the Captain was having an off day."

[Cazadores]

Originally Posted by skydog

That works really well until it is YOU that is affected. "Gee, Mr. Smith, we're awfully sorry your family is dead, but you know, the co-pilot was under a lot of stress, and the Captain was having an off day."

I suppose putting their career on the line every six months would help them "focus".

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Nope, they should go back to their previous seat. People sometimes go through some pretty traumatic stuff in life that can effect how they do in training. I once knew a gal who was one of the best pilots I've flown with who failed out of an upgrade and had to go back to the right seat. Her mom had just died. Also, if someone is "out to get you", anyone can bust a ride. Or you're having an off day. Then, you're sorta freaked out and you don't do well in the retraining. You'll get pretty much as much retraining as you need at my company but if you still can't hack it, you should move back the F/E seat or whatever. Thank gawd for unions...

I'm not talking about upgrade. Look at the subject of the thread.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. If someone fails, retrains and then fails again, maybe they should be let go. Obviously this is a case by case basis but there has to be a breaking point.

Face it, people lose their skills. This isn't a hamburger we're talking about. Pilot's can't let problems on the outside affect their performance. It's impossible to forget ALL of life's stresses once the door shuts, but one must learn to manage stress.

Would you want your favorite football team to keep playing a former MVP just because of his past *cough* Warner *cough*? Eventually, coaches must swallow their pride and forget about the money they spent on underperforming players (aka pilots) and just bench them.

Upgrade is a different story, then yes, I think you should go back to your FO seat. But, if you go back for upgrade again and still can't make it, time to throw in the towel.

[Cazadores]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

I'm not talking about upgrade. Look at the subject of the thread.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. If someone fails, retrains and then fails again, maybe they should be let go. Obviously this is a case by case basis but there has to be a breaking point.

Face it, people lose their skills. This isn't a hamburger we're talking about. Pilot's can't let problems on the outside affect their performance. It's impossible to forget ALL of life's stresses once the door shuts, but one must learn to manage stress.

Would you want your favorite football team to keep playing a former MVP just because of his past *cough* Warner *cough*? Eventually, coaches must swallow their pride and forget about the money they spent on underperforming players (aka pilots) and just bench them.

Upgrade is a different story, then yes, I think you should go back to your FO seat. But, if you go back for upgrade again and still can't make it, time to throw in the towel.

I think, could be wrong, but PC's can get you you "benched" so to speak, easier than upgrades.

I have heard of PC's being referred to as "betting your job". Maybe an airline person could chime in.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by amorris311

i have a question maybe a dumb one, but is it possible to fail recurrent training? if so what are the ramifications? does it happen a lot? do airlines give you a second chance? just a few questions thanks in advance for all of the replies.

Depends on your contract.

The last company I worked for, pre-contract, if you didn't pass recurrent, you're pretty much shown the door and it happened.

At my present company, we have a re-test policy.

Some companies have "up or out" policies on upgrade. I had a friend who worked for American go from flight engineer to first officer (upgraded), failed IOE and even though he had three years of seniority, was fired.

It all depends on who you work for but if you're going to go into the airline business, get used to studying and doing well in a learning environment until you retire.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Cazadores

I think, could be wrong, but PC's can get you you "benched" so to speak, easier than upgrades.

I have heard of PC's being referred to as "betting your job". Maybe an airline person could chime in.

I was told by a fed one time, in jest, that there are those that have failed a checkride and those that will.

In my experience with the airlines the training is good and everyone generally wants you to pass. The airlines have invested money in your training and want to keep you employeed and getting a return on their investment.

As DE727 said, most union contracts have provisions to protect you for failed checkrides. I busted recurrent a couple of years back and it wasn't too big of a deal. It was frustrating in general as I made a stupid mistake (got slow on a V1 cut) that led to having to get retrained and sucessfully retested the next day. Had I had failed again the company had the option to retrain again or start the termination process.

FO's that failed upgrade would be sent back to the FO seat for six months and they then would have to take the next upgrade class and pass or be terminated.

[amorris311]

thanks for all the responses. it just seems that this could be a problem and as mentioned above if the tester has beef with you im sure they could make your life a living hell. yes unions are good for this. i was jsut wondering when you go to recurrent if you are all sitting around and some guy/gal comes out and says darn i failed gotta test again tomorrow. how often does that happen? i hope not that much but it seems realistic.

[Doug Taylor]

That's why if you think the APD (basically a check airman) has a beef with you, if you can't work it out, take it to his superior or report it to the union.

I had a 'virtual wrestling match' with a 757/767 simulator instructor who once moonlighted at a large 'will remain nameless in this thread' flight training academy outside of Orlando and I've been given assurances by the union and the company that our paths will not cross whenever I go for 757/767 training because they don't want the liability.

By the way, the new CAPT program stinks.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

That's why if you think the APD (basically a check airman) has a beef with you, if you can't work it out, take it to his superior or report it to the union.

I had a 'virtual wrestling match' with a 757/767 simulator instructor who once moonlighted at a large 'will remain nameless in this thread' flight training academy outside of Orlando and I've been given assurances by the union and the company that our paths will not cross whenever I go for 757/767 training because they don't want the liability.

By the way, the new CAPT program stinks.

Does this instructor now own and run this flight school?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

By the way, the new CAPT program stinks.

So whats new? The old one did too!

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by amorris311

i have a question maybe a dumb one, but is it possible to fail recurrent training? if so what are the ramifications? does it happen a lot? do airlines give you a second chance? just a few questions thanks in advance for all of the replies.

Well you can fail anything.

In the sim. there are 2 things - Recurrent Proficiency Training (RPT) or Recurrent Proficiency Check (RPC).

It is impossible to fail an RPT. Because an RPT is not pass/fail, it is what it describes - training. HOWEVER - it is possible to be unsatisfactory on an RPT and to then be scheduled for an RPC. Which is pass fail.

What actually happens if you fail an RPC varies - but most airlines have enough invested in you at that point to give you some re-training and at least one more shot at it.

Remember - as airline pilots all we have to be is adequate. Less than adequate is unacceptable and means you won't be flying, and more than adequate is sufficient and has no value to the airline and is treated as such.

[amorris311]

that makes sense. thanks for breaking it down.

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

By the way, the new CAPT program stinks.

What makes you say this? Besides the fact that they're using way too much airplane to train people and charging them their souls and their children's souls for it...I'm curious as to what you know.