FAA restricts East River flights

[BrianNC]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Fixed-wing planes have been banned from the East River corridor in New York unless the pilot is in contact with air traffic control, the Federal Aviation Administration said Friday.

The announcement comes two days after after a plane carrying New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle above the East River slammed into a skyscraper.

The new ban will affect small aircraft, but not helicopters, that previously have been allowed to fly along the river, which runs along the east side of Manhattan Island.

All air traffic along the river has been limited to 1,100 feet in altitude.

Federal officials on Friday wound up an onsite investigation of Wednesday's crash that killed Lidle and Tyler Stanger, a 26-year-old flight instructor from California. (Watch CNN's Miles O'Brien follow Lidle's flight path -- 2:37)

The FAA said a review of operations and procedures in the East River corridor prompted the rule change, which will require pilots of small, fixed-wing aircraft to obtain approval from air traffic controllers before entering the area.

The FAA said the flight restrictions go into effect immediately.

New York Gov. George Pataki and Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, had asked the FAA on Thursday to require anyone flying near Manhattan to be under the supervision of air traffic controllers.

"A smart terrorist could load up a small, little plane with biological, chemical or even nuclear material and fly up the Hudson or East rivers, no questions asked," said Schumer.

The senator said the Lidle crash should be "a wake-up call to the FAA to re-examine flight patterns, which, amazingly enough, they haven't done since 9/11." The date refers to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack when two airliners were flown into the World Trade Center.

The FAA, though, said it changed the rule because of safety rather than security considerations.

"You get some real strange winds going through those canyons of buildings," said Bill Waldock, aviation safety professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University at Prescott, Arizona.

"It's a weird area to try to maneuver airplanes in anyway," Waldock said.

More...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/10/13....ap/index.html

[tonyw]

Muddableeping morons.

Hey, Chuckie boy, why don't you ban all Ryder trucks from all city streets. After all, they used those in the first WTC bombing and the OK City bombing.

And why don't you ban stupidity while you're at it. I'm sure that stupidity has killed far more people than all the terrorists in the world put together.

Oh, wait. If we did that, you'd be banning yourself.

Just goes to show you that H.L. Mencken and P.T. Barnum are right.

[bike21]

I love the part about the corridor being likened to the 'Wild West'

(read it in another article with comments from Sen. Schumer)

[BrianNC]

Originally Posted by tonyw

Muddableeping morons.

Hey, Chuckie boy, why don't you ban all Ryder trucks from all city streets. After all, they used those in the first WTC bombing and the OK City bombing.

And why don't you ban stupidity while you're at it. I'm sure that stupidity has killed far more people than all the terrorists in the world put together.

Oh, wait. If we did that, you'd be banning yourself.

Just goes to show you that H.L. Mencken and P.T. Barnum are right.

Here is something Phil Boyer said along those lines:

OK, for all of those ranting about "threats" from GA aircraft, we'll believe that you're really serious about controlling "threats" when you call for:

• Banning all vans within cities. A small panel van was used in the first World Trade Center attack. The bomb, which weighed 1,500 pounds, killed six and injured 1,042.
• Banning all box trucks from cities. Timothy McVeigh's rented Ryder truck carried a 5,000-pound bomb that killed 168 in Oklahoma City.
• Banning all semi-trailer trucks. They can carry bombs weighing more than 50,000 pounds.
• Banning newspapers on subways. That's how the terrorists hid packages of sarin nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system. They killed 12.
• Banning backpacks on all buses and subways. That's how the terrorists got the bombs into the London subway system. They killed 52.
• Banning all cell phones on trains. That's how they detonated the bombs in backpacks placed on commuter trains in Madrid. They killed 191.
• Banning all small pleasure boats on public waterways. That's how terrorists attacked the USS Cole, killing 17.
• Banning all heavy or bulky clothing in all public places. That's how suicide bombers hide their murderous charges. Thousands killed.

Number of people killed by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.
Number of people injured by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.
Property damage from a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? None.

[jtrain609]

Like everybody else I think it's BS. But I will say that I watched that O'Brian guy take his Cirrus down the east river and if you were going too fast and tried to take your time doing a standard rate turn you'd be SCREWED trying to make that turn around. That being said, not being aware of what's around you will get you killed in an airplane no matter where you're at. Stall and spin on base to final? We shouldn't ban base to final turns, should we?

It looks like these guys either lost situational awareness or simply made a mistake in planning their turn.

[bLizZuE]

this is stupid

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by BrianNC

"A smart terrorist could load up a small, little plane with biological, chemical or even nuclear material and fly up the Hudson or East rivers, no questions asked," said Schumer.

The senator said the Lidle crash should be "a wake-up call to the FAA to re-examine flight patterns, which, amazingly enough, they haven't done since 9/11." The date refers to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack when two airliners were flown into the World Trade Center.

I effing hate Chuck Schumer so effing much. How in the freakin' hell is talking to ATC going to stop a freaking bloody terrorist?!?!?!?!

"Oh, they want me to squawk 0703. I guess we better give ourselves up." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Kingairer]

Makes sense to me, why should Joe "Weekend-Warrior" be flying that close to buildings.

[TXaviator]

hey lets ban and make illegal murder....should cut down on the number of murders, right?

[Grabo172]

Originally Posted by BrianNC

Here is something Phil Boyer said along those lines:

OK, for all of those ranting about "threats" from GA aircraft, we'll believe that you're really serious about controlling "threats" when you call for:

• Banning all vans within cities. A small panel van was used in the first World Trade Center attack. The bomb, which weighed 1,500 pounds, killed six and injured 1,042.
• Banning all box trucks from cities. Timothy McVeigh's rented Ryder truck carried a 5,000-pound bomb that killed 168 in Oklahoma City.
• Banning all semi-trailer trucks. They can carry bombs weighing more than 50,000 pounds.
• Banning newspapers on subways. That's how the terrorists hid packages of sarin nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system. They killed 12.
• Banning backpacks on all buses and subways. That's how the terrorists got the bombs into the London subway system. They killed 52.
• Banning all cell phones on trains. That's how they detonated the bombs in backpacks placed on commuter trains in Madrid. They killed 191.
• Banning all small pleasure boats on public waterways. That's how terrorists attacked the USS Cole, killing 17.
• Banning all heavy or bulky clothing in all public places. That's how suicide bombers hide their murderous charges. Thousands killed.

Number of people killed by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.
Number of people injured by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.
Property damage from a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? None.

Phil and AOPA are going to be getting paid overtime for this one I'm thinking.


Here's my new favorite quote and I put it in my sig line... Fit ssoooo well here

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin

[darrenf]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Makes sense to me, why should Joe "Weekend-Warrior" be flying that close to buildings.

You forgot the Sarcasm tag!

[wheelsup]

this is stupid

This sounds like it won't do a thing to most people. To me it makes sense (honestly). When you call LGA the first thing they do is give you a code, give you a Class B clearance and climb you to 1,500' and shoot you straight up the river. No crazy manuvering required.

For someone used to operating in that area I agree it can be done safely (there is a banner tower guy on here I believe who does it) but something like this will prevent the majority of weekend warriors from trying to do a pretty tough turn.

It sounds like a knee-jerk reaction (and may be in part) but if they keep to what they have done in the past it actually has a little rhyme and reason to it.

[cmsuav8r]

"Property damage from a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? None."


Wasn't a Skyhawk flown into the White House in the early to mid 90's. If I recall, this happened but the damage was minor.

[falconvalley]

It isn't gonna change a thing, but make it required to call ATC before you

A. fly around the corridor unscathed

B. fly in the corridor and crash on purpose or by accident

C. intend to fly in the corridor but end up over the Capital

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

I effing hate Chuck Schumer so effing much. How in the freakin' hell is talking to ATC going to stop a freaking bloody terrorist?!?!?!?!

It's the same thing as the ADIZ. Yeah, because we know that if the terrorists were dumb enough to pull off the airplane trick again, they'd kill people to get access to the airplanes, they'd plot to destroy buildings and kill people on the ground, but file a false ADIZ flight plan?

Never.

I fly out of GAI. If you had a Citation or Lear, you could take off from GAI and be right over the White House or Capitol in five minutes.

They couldn't even get the fighters off the ground at Andrews that quickly.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

C. intend to fly in the corridor but end up over the Capital

The capital of New York is Albany! FYI!

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by Grabo172

Phil and AOPA are going to be getting paid overtime for this one I'm thinking.

Great, does that mean I will be getting even more mail from AOPA asking for funds and stuff.

If they sent out half as much mail they would save millions!

I think it is a losing battle anyway... All they are doing is delaying the unstoppable...

On another note though, has anyone ever seen the FAA move this fast before?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by tonyw

They couldn't even get the fighters off the ground at Andrews that quickly.

They don't need to - they are already in the air...

(callsign "death")

Again, according to the CNN article this had nothing to do with terrorism et al. It had everything to do with safety IMO.

If it was terrorism linked they would've restricted all aircraft (including helicopters) in the corridor. Or maybe it's just that the helicopter lobby group had waaaay more money than the fixed wing fellows .

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

The capital of New York is Albany! FYI!

I meant DC hehe.

[BrianNC]

So is there anyone here who has flown the corridor that can see how this might have happened?

[SteveC]

I haven't flown the corridor, but we just now got back to the hotel from a drive around NYC that included a trip along the East River past the building that they hit. I don't know if they were east or west of Roosevelt Island when they started their turn, but it looks like a pretty tight area for an aircraft to do a 180. I can see where someone not experienced in the area could get in trouble in (relatively) low-vis conditions which distort distance perception, coupled with a tailwind that increases the turn radius. I could envision someone trying to make the turn and quickly running out of room and staring at a big black building (just northeast of the one they hit), deciding in a split second to try rolling out of the turn to miss the building and go around it to the west (inland), dodge the huge smokestack that suddently appears in front of you, and then run completely out of options as the winds (that have suddenly increased velocity as they channel between the buildings) shove you into the next building with nowhere left to go.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BrianNC

So is there anyone here who has flown the corridor that can see how this might have happened?

I did dozens of discovery flights from teterboro, down the hudson, around the statue of liberty, and up the east river (basically the exact flight path lidle took). If LGA couldn't give me a clearance up the east river @ 1,500' I wouldn't do it, I'd just turn around and go back up the hudson.

[SteveC]

I've been following some conversations on another site that also has some pilots experienced with the area, and most (not all) say that the East River is too tight for safe 180 degree turns at low level (below building height). Not saying that it couldn't, or isn't done, just that the margins are tight.

Some of the data that I saw (unverified) gives the width of the river in that area at around 2000 feet. Consider that the diameter of a 180 degree turn, 30 degree bank, at 80 knots is very close to 2000 feet. Add in the fact that the SR20 stall speed, clean, level flight, at 30 degree bank, is 70 KIAS.

If you increase the bank angle to 45 degrees, but also increase airspeed to stay above a stall, you will find a turn diameter of 1800 feet at 100 knots. Way too close to 2000 feet, and you still have to assume that they started their turn somewhere over water, not right at the east shore of the river. Then add a 13+ knot wind from the east pushing them even further into the buildings and things don't look too good for a successful completion.

Considering that he was a low time private pilot, and the CFI was from out of state and probably unfamiliar with the area, it is all too easy to see the links of the accident chain forming. I could even see them starting up the East River by mistake (low vis) rather than the Hudson. Hard to say...

[BrianNC]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I've been following some conversations on another site that also has some pilots experienced with the area, and most (not all) say that the East River is too tight for safe 180 degree turns at low level (below building height). Not saying that it couldn't, or isn't done, just that the margins are tight.

Some of the data that I saw (unverified) gives the width of the river in that area at around 2000 feet. Consider that the diameter of a 180 degree turn, 30 degree bank, at 80 knots is very close to 2000 feet. Add in the fact that the SR20 stall speed, clean, level flight, at 30 degree bank, is 70 KIAS.

If you increase the bank angle to 45 degrees, but also increase airspeed to stay above a stall, you will find a turn diameter of 1800 feet at 100 knots. Way too close to 2000 feet, and you still have to assume that they started their turn somewhere over water, not right at the east shore of the river. Then add a 13+ knot wind from the east pushing them even further into the buildings and things don't look too good for a successful completion.

Considering that he was a low time private pilot, and the CFI was from out of state and probably unfamiliar with the area, it is all too easy to see the links of the accident chain forming. I could even see them starting up the East River by mistake (low vis) rather than the Hudson. Hard to say...

Good post Steve. Interesting.

[doug_or]

Heard about it on ATIS this morning. #$%^&* politicans.


This is what representative democracy gets you. Knee jerk reactions that accomplish nothing. I'm starting a coup. Who's with me?